Prove it!

[Des]

As I said you don’t seem to understand context, context, context. Context helps us understand meaning of sentences.

The only context you have in the verse regarding Mary is you personally think She MUST have had relations. Nowhere in that verse does it suggest that so I’m still baffled on this point you are attempting to throw at me.

 

[Dokimas]

Tweety. I showed you the word until doesn’t have to mean that something is done up to that point. I also said He knew Her not meant He didn’t have sexual relations with Her. If you choose to ignore the very fact that the Church of both the East and West have ALWAYS believed Mary remained a virgin and assume with your own personal opinion, then that’s all it will be. An opinion of yours and not a conclusion from the Bible that Mother Mary didn’t remain a virgin.

Seems to me Tweetymom compared apples with apples and you compared apple with oranges. I’ll take Tweetymom’s understanding. It makes more sense. I admit what God does DOES NOT have to make sense to me, however, God gave us a wonderful brain to reason things out. Tweetymom’s reasoning seems correct.

 

[Dokimas]

So you are suggesting that the Greek word until is not the same in the verses I have given you?

I am suggesting NO such thing. I’ll check for you. I gave the Greek words because someone commented on the Engish translation. Same Greek word, similar construction, therefore … Tweetymom’s understanding makes sense.​

While I’m looking it up could you make a direct comment about those verses with a similar construction as Matthew 1:25

 

[Des]

You must not understand what I mean by context, context, context. I mean context helps us understand meaning. Of course Jesus will be with us even after the age ends. I doubt if Joe will be able to repent after he dies (but if God wants to extend His grace for Joe, I’ll not be upset.). I’m not sure what will happen after the enemies of Jesus will be His footstool.​

Now that I’ve responded to your verses, your turn to respond to mine.​

How about: I’m going to keep my shirt on until I take a shower.​

Compare that construction to:

Joseph did not know Mary till Jesus was born.

That verse regarding the Lord to you is as obvious as the verse regarding Mary to me. The Church has spoken on the matter, therefore, I know what it means. You’re implying context out of an assumption Mary had to have kids. It’s your own interpretation and nothing more.

 

[Des]

While I’m looking it up could you make a direct comment about those verses with a similar construction as Matthew 1:25

I’m not sure I follow.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, Context, Context, Context Dokimas.

And behold I am with you always, even UNTIL the end of the age.“And behold I am with you always, even UNTIL the end of the age.”…God isn’t with us after the end of the age?

Joe did not repent TILL the day he died…Joe repented after he died?

'The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand until [eos] I make Thine enemies Thy footstool"…The Lord then will no longer sit at the right Hand of the Father?

Mt 28:20 “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.​

Yes the same Greek word is used in Matthew 28:20. The context is important and IMO can’t be compared with the other three verses.​

Your other verse is from the OT and it was written in Hebrew. I don’t know how similar they are but again context makes your two verses similar, but different to the other three.

 

[Dokimas]

I’m not sure I follow.

Mt 2:15 and was there until (Greek word - heos) the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”​

Did Jesus and His family stay in Egypt?​

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until (Greek word - heos) the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”​

Did they tell the vision after Jesus was raised from the dead? I think so, that’s how we know about it.

 

[Des]

Seems to me Tweetymom compared apples with apples and you compared apple with oranges. I’ll take Tweetymom’s understanding. It makes more sense. I admit what God does DOES NOT have to make sense to me, however, God gave us a wonderful brain to reason things out. Tweetymom’s reasoning seems correct.

And that reasoning is derived from a ‘normal’ relationship minus the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit. My brain that God gave me and reasoning, tells me that if my Virgin Bride conceived in Her Womb, God Himself, from the Holy Spirit. I would NEVER touch Her in a sexual way for She is now God’s Holy Vessel.

 

[Dokimas]

And that reasoning is derived from a ‘normal’ relationship minus the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit. My brain that God gave me and reasoning, tells me that if my Virgin Bride conceived in Her Womb, God Himself, from the Holy Spirit. I would NEVER touch Her in a sexual way for She is now God’s Holy Vessel.

The verse in Matthew 1 said Joseph didn’t ‘touch’ Mary while she was the vessel. That time period is not in question.​

Try this logic: If I were God and I didn’t want Joseph to ‘know’ Mary, it would be obvious.

 

[Des]

Mt 28:20 “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.​

Yes the same Greek word is used in Matthew 28:20. The context is important and IMO can’t be compared with the other three verses.​

Your other verse is from the OT and it was written in Hebrew. I don’t know how similar they are but again context makes your two verses similar, but different to the other three.

Dokimas, the context of the verse regarding Mary was all about Her Virgin Birth. It wasn’t to prove she was to remain a Virgin or that she would lose Her virginity in the future.

 

[Des]

.​

Try this logic: If I were God and I didn’t want Joseph to ‘know’ Mary, it would be obvious.

What makes you think it wasn’t obvious to Joseph?
Mary is referred to as the New Ark so it’s obvious someone knew She was special.

And I’m not sure if you can state that everything God wanted us to know, was right in front of our faces regarding the Written Word. Three Persons in One God is implied, but not explicit enough as to not cause confusion to Bible readers.

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas, the context of the verse regarding Mary was all about Her Virgin Birth. It wasn’t to prove she was to remain a Virgin or that she would lose Her virginity in the future.

Not exactly. There are plenty of other verses about the virgin birth of Jesus. It was about Joseph and his relation to Mary sexually.

 

[Dokimas]

What makes you think it wasn’t obvious to Joseph?
Mary is referred to as the New Ark so it’s obvious someone knew She was special.

And I’m not sure if you can state that everything God wanted us to know, was right in front of our faces regarding the Written Word. Three Persons in One God is implied, but not explicit enough as to not cause confusion to Bible readers.

Your church calls Mary the New Ark, not the Bible.​

God hasn’t revealed everthing to us, correct. However, if His church was to build a doctrine about the mother of Jesus that would include continued virginity, He sure could have explained it more clearly and I’m thinking (maybe wrongly) He would have had Matthew use the wording he did use.

 

[Dokimas]

Des, could you please answer these questions?

Mt 2:15 and was there until (Greek word - heos) the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”​

Did Jesus and His family stay in Egypt?​

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until (Greek word - heos) the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”​

Did the disciples not tell the vision after Jesus was raised from the dead?​

 

[Des]

Your church calls Mary the New Ark, not the Bible.​

God hasn’t revealed everthing to us, correct. However, if His church was to build a doctrine about the mother of Jesus that would include continued virginity, He sure could have explained it more clearly and I’m thinking (maybe wrongly) He would have had Matthew use the wording he did use.

I disagree because firstly, you’re going under the false premise that the Bible alone is all a Christian needs to know revealed Truths so long as the Holy Spirit is helping.

Secondly, Luke does a marvellous job of connecting Mary to the Ark.

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp

 

[guanophore]

Exactly and if everything was and is ordained by Jesus how can these things change?

This is an excellent question, Tweety, and a common one, as one might expect.

What we have from the Apostles are infallible, unchanging teachings that have come down to us. These we cannot change in any way, but they must be preserved exactly as they were handed down. This is called the paradosis, the handing down of the Teaching.

The sacraments, ordained by Jesus, are among those that cannot change.

On the other hand, we have disciplines and spiritual practices that are not binding on the faithful, as the doctrines are. Disciplines and spiritual practices vary across cultures, eras, and needs of the Church. The Rosary is one such devotional practice. it was introduced some 1000 years after the Apostles, and is not considered part of the Divine Deposit of Fatih. Fasting, clothing, attendance, and all kinds of other practices fall into this category, and change.

 

[Dokimas]

Mary is referred to as the New Ark so it’s obvious someone knew She was special.

For the sake of argument, let’s say Mary was the New Ark, she was a virgin from conception to birth. After the birth, Jesus was not in the New Ark, so she didn’t need to remain a virgin.​

BTW, I’ve only come across two Arks (part of the Tabernacle) in the Bible. One made with human hands hand and recorded in Exodus. The other in Heaven and is most probably Jesus Himself (read Hebrew chapter 8-10). The first one was a copy of the Heavenly One.

 

[Des]

Des, could you please answer these questions?

Mt 2:15 and was there until (Greek word - heos) the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”​

Did Jesus and His family stay in Egypt?​

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until (Greek word - heos) the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”​

Did the disciples not tell the vision after Jesus was raised from the dead?​

Doimas, I never said the word until didn’t also mean what you say it means. My point was that it doesn’t mean without a doubt that it means it in that way. And are you certain that the word until in those passages are the same in Greek as the ones in mine?

 

[Dokimas]

Doimas, I never said the word until didn’t also mean what you say it means. My point was that it doesn’t mean without a doubt that it means it in that way. And are you certain that the word until in those passages are the same in Greek as the ones in mine?

I never said you said … ​

You seem to say there is no doubt that the verse in question says that after Mary gave birth to Jesus, Joseph never ‘knew’ Mary.​

According to my Greek lexicon they are the same words in my passages and in yours. I suppose I could have not looked carefully.

 

[Des]

For the sake of argument, let’s say Mary was the New Ark, she was a virgin from conception to birth. After the birth, Jesus was not in the New Ark, so she didn’t need to remain a virgin.

That would be dishonouring His mother by using Her as a mere vessel and nothing more then. To throw Her away like an intrument. And then there’s the fact that She remains the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. Out of great respect on that alone, I woudn’t dare touch Her weather I’m Her earthly husband or not.