Prove it!

PRmerger · Dec 18, 2009

Jars_of_Clay said:
PR, I asked this in your posting since you have the opinion (I think by reading above) that Mary and Joseph didn’t have sex during their marriage so I was wondering if there is any bible reference to support their marriage was celibate.

Thanks!

Another is [BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 44:1-2[/BIBLEDRB]

If a gate of the temple which has been used by the Lord is so holy that no one else shall enter through that gate, then how much moreso the gate by which the Lord entered into this life to bring salvation to all mankind? Mary is the gate through which the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered, and therefore it (her womb) shall remain shut and no one else will enter by it. Source: John Martignoni’s Apologetics for the Masses newsletter

PRmerger · Dec 18, 2009

Leslie_Polley said:
Absolutly the Holy Spirit is the author and the finisher of the Bible The Bible is Fact, not Tradition…Tradition is the passinn down of elements of a culture from generation to generation especially by oral communication.

Yes. What you are describing is tradition.

Sacred Tradition is something completely different.

Just like the difference between Rain (good) and ***Acid ***Rain (bad). Or Stem Cell Research (good) and Embryonic Stem Cell Research (bad).

One little adjective can change the meaning immensely. (BTW, I am not claiming that tradition is good and Sacred Tradition is bad.

)

Now would be the time to show us your claim that you know everything you needed to know about Catholicism and that’s why you left…and tell us exactly what the CC teaches is Sacred Tradition, Leslie.

Jars_of_Clay_1 · Dec 19, 2009

PRmerger said:
One verse is “how can this be since I know not man?” Luke 1:34.

Imagine that you’re newly married (i.e. betrothed) and an angel appears to you and tells you “You will conceive a child”.

If you plan to have a normal marriage you would respond: “Wow! I can’t wait!” Not, “How can this be since I know not man?”

That simple question betrays her plan for celibacy as a consecrated virgin.

Otherwise, her question makes no sense if she were going to have marital relations with Joseph, right?

Thanks for your response. Oh, yes, certainly I understand what you’re writing about when Jesus was conceived (without man), but what about later - after Jesus is born?

Mary remains married to Joseph after the birth of Jesus, correct? Or is that incorrect? After Jesus’ birth is there anything in the bible that speaks to their celibacy after Jesus is born? I’m assuming that Joseph and Mary remain married until his or her death. Or is this something that is not mentioned at all in the bible?

(I’m not putting this on you…just thought you’d know…I can’t find anything stating they remained celibate.) If you can’t find it that’s ok. Thanks again.

Jars_of_Clay_1 · Dec 19, 2009

PRmerger said:
Another is [BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 44:1-2[/BIBLEDRB]

If a gate of the temple which has been used by the Lord is so holy that no one else shall enter through that gate, then how much moreso the gate by which the Lord entered into this life to bring salvation to all mankind? Mary is the gate through which the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered, and therefore it (her womb) shall remain shut and no one else will enter by it. Source: John Martignoni’s Apologetics for the Masses newsletter

Ah - thank you for this posting! I’ll research it to see its original meaning. Very much appreciated. (I should of read this first before my previous post.)

Dokimas · Dec 19, 2009

guanophore said:
I can see your point, but one must take into account that this Apostolic Teaching is still held on all communities founded by the Apostles including those that have no love lost on the Catholic church. If it is a “Catholic” phenomenon only, they why would those who are in schism with the Catholic Church hold it?

Why do you not trust God to preserve His word? Why do you think He can only do it if men write it on parchment for Him?

I don’t have a problem with God’s part; my problem is with any group that says, “I’m the one and only”. The more the one and only takes over, the less God can take control. There’s little humility in ‘I’m the one’. There’s One Name under Heaven given to us mortals by which we can be save: that Name is Jesus, the Christ, the One from Nazareth, the King of king, Lord of lords, the Prince of Pease, etc.; that name is the Beginning and the End and it doesn’t go through a church. There is One Mediator between God and us and that’s Jesus (not Jesus plus a church or church leader)

BTW, why don’t you trust God to be able to speak to individuals? It’s the same question as you asked me.

Dokimas · Dec 19, 2009

PRnmerger, is there any verse that directly calls Mary ‘the gate’? I know of verses in John 10 that calls Jesus ‘The Door’.

I see that the CC has a very intricate doctrine about Mary.

As for the gate in the EZ passage, did anyone ever pass through the gate before it was blocked?

Dokimas · Dec 19, 2009

guanophore said:
Why do you not trust God to preserve His word? Why do you think He can only do it if men write it on parchment for Him?

Was not Israel God’s chosen people? They were responsible for the OT. Did they stay faithful to God? Was that God’s inability to force them to stay pure, or did God give them a free will with which they chose false doctrines and false gods?

Do you think the CC replaced Israel? What do you think of this verse in Ez 43

7 ¶ And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places.

God is NEVER the problem; it our pride, part of which we are good enough to be used by Him.

Dokimas · Dec 19, 2009

PRmerger said:
That is quite a peculiar argument in light of the upcoming season. For the term “Christmas” is[SIGN1] not even in the Bible.[/SIGN1]

Yet, I presume, you celebrate Christmas at your church?

You see how that argument “It’s not in the Bible” turns around and bites you in the bottom?

If you criticize the CC for having beliefs not in Scripture, then you cannot have any yourself.

And that’s simply impossible for a Christian to do.

In fact, I’ve never met a Christian–*ever–*who did not have extra-biblical beliefs.

And, the term “Christmas” is, it seems, one of them. The term is [SIGN]not even in the Bible![/SIGN]

I was wondering what that was that was nipping at my back side.

You missed the point. The name of the church Jesus founded is in the NT. It is, from the mouth of Jesus, ‘My church’. Another term used for the group of people universally part of this group is 'Body of Christ".

I am not criticizing anything, I’m observing teachings that are shackey at best.

I celebrate the Birth of the Savior. Because the term ‘Christmas’ is understood by most, if not all, I have contact with, it is a means of communicating from which I hope the joy of the Event of the first ‘Christmas’ is obvious through me.

Dokimas · Dec 19, 2009

PRmerger said:
One verse is “how can this be since I know not man?” Luke 1:34.

Imagine that you’re newly married (i.e. betrothed) and an angel appears to you and tells you “You will conceive a child”.

If you plan to have a normal marriage you would respond: “Wow! I can’t wait!” Not, “How can this be since I know not man?”

That simple question betrays her plan for celibacy as a consecrated virgin.

Otherwise, her question makes no sense if she were going to have marital relations with Joseph, right?

Mary and Joseph was not newly married when Gabriel came to her. Betrothal, for the Jews of that time, was very elaberate and marriage didn’t take place for quite a while.

Notice what the angel said to Joseph:

Mt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

They were not married when Mary got pregnant (notice the ‘is’.)

No doubt Mary didn’t have sex before marriage. Joseph, at first, thought she must have had because she was married before marriage and that with someone else. That’s why he was going to ‘put her away’.

Dokimas · Dec 19, 2009

PRmerger: Isn’t that judging?

Not if you still bring it up. Unless you’re not sweet.

Dokimas · Dec 19, 2009

Very well said.:thumbsup:

Actually, it could be said for me as well.

Dokimas · Dec 19, 2009

Honestly, I understand and identify.

PRmerger · Dec 19, 2009

Jars_of_Clay said:
Thanks for your response. Oh, yes, certainly I understand what you’re writing about when Jesus was conceived (without man), but what about later - after Jesus is born?

Mary remains married to Joseph after the birth of Jesus, correct? Or is that incorrect? After Jesus’ birth is there anything in the bible that speaks to their celibacy after Jesus is born? I’m assuming that Joseph and Mary remain married until his or her death. Or is this something that is not mentioned at all in the bible?

(I’m not putting this on you…just thought you’d know…I can’t find anything stating they remained celibate.) If you can’t find it that’s ok. Thanks again.

Mary was already essentially married. So if she had intended to have relations with Joseph–ever–the question she asks makes no sense. Especially after Jesus was born.

It speaks to the fact that she intended to be celibate–a consecrated virgin–for her entire life. Not just before the birth of Jesus.

PRmerger · Dec 19, 2009

Dokimas said:
Mary and Joseph was not newly married when Gabriel came to her. Betrothal, for the Jews of that time, was very elaberate and marriage didn’t take place for quite a while.

My understanding of the ancient Jewish custom of betrothal is a little different. I understand that betrothal meant that they were married, but not living together until a home could be built for them by the husband.

And, I think the Scriptures bear this out–for if they weren’t married, why would Joseph try to divorce her quietly?

You can’t divorce someone you’re not married to.

So, if they were essentially married and the angel told her she’s going to conceive–her natural response would be “Awesome!”. However, if she plans to NEVER engage in the marital act, then the logical response is: Luke 1:34.

tweetymom · Dec 19, 2009

Matthew 1:24-25 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her first born son: and he called his name Jesus.

PRmerger · Dec 19, 2009

Dokimas said:
Not if you still bring it up. Unless you’re not sweet.

Not sure what you mean, Dokimas.

Bring what up? Being judgmental?

All I’m saying about that is people who cast aspersions at others by saying “You’re being judgmental!” are being, well,…judgmental. It’s a little hypocritcal.

Dokimas · Dec 19, 2009

PRmerger said:
My understanding of the ancient Jewish custom of betrothal is a little different. I understand that betrothal meant that they were married, but not living together until a home could be built for them by the husband.

And, I think the Scriptures bear this out–for if they weren’t married, why would Joseph try to divorce her quietly?

You can’t divorce someone you’re not married to.

So, if they were essentially married and the angel told her she’s going to conceive–her natural response would be “Awesome!”. However, if she plans to NEVER engage in the marital act, then the logical response is: Luke 1:34.

yeshuatyisrael.com/messiah_wedding%201.htm

Notice that concumation doesn’t happen until step 10 which could take up to 2 yrs after the original contract was entered into.

Dokimas · Dec 19, 2009

PRmerger, did you see that I teased you on another thread?

BTW, my mother-in-law is, for all practicle purposes, on her death bed. Please pray for her and her children. She’s at home and all are involved the best they can to take care of her. They have help but it’s very hard on them all.

Thank you and God bless.

PRmerger · Dec 19, 2009

Dokimas said:
Mary and Joseph was not newly married when Gabriel came to her. Betrothal, for the Jews of that time, was very elaberate and marriage didn’t take place for quite a while.
Notice what the angel said to Joseph:

Mt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which** is** conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
They were not married when Mary got pregnant (notice the ‘is’.

Didn’t the verse above just designate Mary as Joseph’s WIFE?

tweetymom · Dec 19, 2009

Dokimas said:
PRmerger, did you see that I teased you on another thread?
BTW, my mother-in-law is, for all practicle purposes, on her death bed. Please pray for her and her children. She’s at home and all are involved the best they can to take care of her. They have help but it’s very hard on them all.
Thank you and God bless.

I will right now and so sorry.

Prove it!

PRmerger

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PRmerger

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Jars_of_Clay_1

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Jars_of_Clay_1

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Dokimas

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Dokimas

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PRnmerger, is there any verse that directly calls Mary ‘the gate’? I know of verses in John 10 that calls Jesus ‘The Door’.​

I see that the CC has a very intricate doctrine about Mary.​

Dokimas

Guest

Was not Israel God’s chosen people? They were responsible for the OT. Did they stay faithful to God? Was that God’s inability to force them to stay pure, or did God give them a free will with which they chose false doctrines and false gods?​

Dokimas

Guest

I was wondering what that was that was nipping at my back side.​

You missed the point. The name of the church Jesus founded is in the NT. It is, from the mouth of Jesus, ‘My church’. Another term used for the group of people universally part of this group is 'Body of Christ".​

I am not criticizing anything, I’m observing teachings that are shackey at best.​

Dokimas

Guest

Mary and Joseph was not newly married when Gabriel came to her. Betrothal, for the Jews of that time, was very elaberate and marriage didn’t take place for quite a while.​

Mt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which** is **conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.​

They were not married when Mary got pregnant (notice the ‘is’.)​

Dokimas

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Dokimas

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Very well said.:thumbsup:​

Dokimas

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PRmerger

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PRmerger

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tweetymom

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PRmerger

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Dokimas

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yeshuatyisrael.com/messiah_wedding%201.htm​

Dokimas

Guest

PRmerger, did you see that I teased you on another thread?​

BTW, my mother-in-law is, for all practicle purposes, on her death bed. Please pray for her and her children. She’s at home and all are involved the best they can to take care of her. They have help but it’s very hard on them all.​

PRmerger

Guest

Mary and Joseph was not newly married when Gabriel came to her. Betrothal, for the Jews of that time, was very elaberate and marriage didn’t take place for quite a while.​

Mt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which** is** conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.​

tweetymom

Guest

PRmerger, did you see that I teased you on another thread?​

BTW, my mother-in-law is, for all practicle purposes, on her death bed. Please pray for her and her children. She’s at home and all are involved the best they can to take care of her. They have help but it’s very hard on them all.​

PRnmerger, is there any verse that directly calls Mary ‘the gate’? I know of verses in John 10 that calls Jesus ‘The Door’.

I see that the CC has a very intricate doctrine about Mary.

Was not Israel God’s chosen people? They were responsible for the OT. Did they stay faithful to God? Was that God’s inability to force them to stay pure, or did God give them a free will with which they chose false doctrines and false gods?

I was wondering what that was that was nipping at my back side.

You missed the point. The name of the church Jesus founded is in the NT. It is, from the mouth of Jesus, ‘My church’. Another term used for the group of people universally part of this group is 'Body of Christ".

I am not criticizing anything, I’m observing teachings that are shackey at best.

Mary and Joseph was not newly married when Gabriel came to her. Betrothal, for the Jews of that time, was very elaberate and marriage didn’t take place for quite a while.

Mt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

They were not married when Mary got pregnant (notice the ‘is’.)

Very well said.:thumbsup:

yeshuatyisrael.com/messiah_wedding%201.htm

PRmerger, did you see that I teased you on another thread?

BTW, my mother-in-law is, for all practicle purposes, on her death bed. Please pray for her and her children. She’s at home and all are involved the best they can to take care of her. They have help but it’s very hard on them all.

Mary and Joseph was not newly married when Gabriel came to her. Betrothal, for the Jews of that time, was very elaberate and marriage didn’t take place for quite a while.

Mt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

PRmerger, did you see that I teased you on another thread?

BTW, my mother-in-law is, for all practicle purposes, on her death bed. Please pray for her and her children. She’s at home and all are involved the best they can to take care of her. They have help but it’s very hard on them all.