Prove it!

[PRmerger]

Not sure what you mean, Dokimas.

Bring what up? Being judgmental?

All I’m saying about that is people who cast aspersions at others by saying “You’re being judgmental!” are being, well,…judgmental. It’s a little hypocritcal.

Ah! I think I just got what just happened, Dokimas.

You thought that I made this sarcastic remark:

[SIGN1]and YOU my dearest sweet judgemental person still bring it up.[/SIGN1]

However, I don’t talk like that. Here’s the person who speaks that way:

My dear Carmelian…FYI I was repremanded for that, and that was fine…I did however try to change the word moron…before I was repremanded. I did not call “people” a moron, just one person. Please get things straight. I will not do that again. Now God has forgiven me, I did my “penence” [SIGN1]and YOU my dearest sweet judgemental person still bring it up. [/SIGN1] Well thats fine…I forgive you

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger, did you see that I teased you on another thread?

No, I didn’t. Still sorting through the thread subscriptions.​

BTW, my mother-in-law is, for all practicle purposes, on her death bed. Please pray for her and her children. She’s at home and all are involved the best they can to take care of her. They have help but it’s very hard on them all.​

Thank you and God bless.

I will pray for a peaceful and joyful resolution, Dokimas.

May you be blessed by the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth!
-Psalm 115:15

 

[guanophore]

I have shown that some of your teaching is questionable.

No, Doki. You have shown us that you question it. Your failure to receive what the Apostles delivered to the Church does not make that deposit of faith “quetionable”.​

-I see in the Bible God doesn’t like pride. Saying your church is the ONE and is infallible could be because of pride.

Indeed, such a claim, were it not true, would be the epitome of hubris. ​

• You can’t prove the Catholic Church from the Bible is the original church; the term isn’t even in the Bible.

Well, Doki, history is on our side there, I am afraid. Also, if you check Act. 9:41, you will find that the term “catholic” to describe the universal truth throughout the whole world was already in use, and was common by the time of Irenaeus. The term applied by Luke in the book of Acts was the term used to distinguish orthodox Christianity from heretical sects,just as it is today.

 

[guanophore]

Absolutly the Holy Spirit is the author and the finisher of the Bible The Bible is Fact, not Tradition…

You are creating a false dichotomy, Leslie. The HS works through people both to author, and to finish it. It was MEN, inspired by God, who wrote.

The bible was never intended to be a book of “fact” but of God’s Revelation of Himself to us. Indeed, this is exactly the meaning of Sacred Tradition. It is the keeping of God’s Revelation of Himself to man. How do you suppose God preserved His revelation of Himself to man for 6000 years before Moses wrote the book of Genesis?

.

Tradition is the passinn down of elements of a culture from generation to generation especially by oral communication…

This is true about human culture (man made traditions), but when teh culture being passed down is Divine, as is our culture called The Way in the NT, it is the inerrant HS that guides and structures that culture.

…a Fact…Information presented as objectively real, A real occurrence, and event had to prove the facts.

I think you are missing the point of scripture here. Most of scripture is not objective at all. It is from God’s point of view. It is also not intended to be a collection of “facts” but the story of God’s relationship with His people. There are many elements of our faith we accept without “proof”, or even that fly in the face of “facts”.

 Quality of being real.   I believe in Fact.  Tradition can be inhanced if it just passed down from generation to generation......It can take on a whole new meaning.  I believe the Bible is a book of Facts, inspired by the Holy Spirit.....Fact or Tradition....?  The Word Sacred does not change the word tradition.....

There is no contradiction between the Sacred Scripture, and the Sacred Tradition. they both come from the same unchanging source.

I agree that what you say is true about human traditions. But since Sacred Tradition comes from God, it is immutable, and cannot change.

 

[guanophore]

This should be intersting to read, though I will refrain from getting involved if I can.

Oh, C’mon Rv! Just let it fly!

 

[guanophore]

I don’t have a problem with God’s part; my problem is with any group that says, “I’m the one and only”. The more the one and only takes over, the less God can take control. There’s little humility in ‘I’m the one’.

Well, clearly you DO have a problem with God’s part, as Jesus is God, and He said “upon this Rock I willl build MY CHURCH”. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is built by God,a nd preserved by Him through the power of the HS… What you are suggesting here is that the gates of hell (people taking control of what belongs to God) can actually prevail against what He has built. You are saying He is a weakling, or a liar, or too disinterested to preserve what He founded.

• There’s One Name under Heaven given to us mortals by which we can be save: that Name is Jesus, the Christ, the One from Nazareth, the King of king, Lord of lords, the Prince of Pease, etc.; that name is the Beginning and the End and it doesn’t go through a church.

All these things you testifiy to are correct, except the last. The immortal immutable Son of God has, indeed, chosen to manifest Himself to the world through His Body, the Church. You are trying to behead Him from His Body, not sure why?

• There is One Mediator between God and us and that’s Jesus (not Jesus plus a church or church leader)

BTW, why don’t you trust God to be able to speak to individuals? It’s the same question as you asked me.

The Church only mediates as Christ Himself. It is He who is present to us in and through the Church, His Body. He has no body now on earth but the Church, until He comes again.

I trust God to speak to individuals! He speaks to me everyday, though some days I don’t like what He has to say much.

He does not lead individuals into a different direction than he has led the Church.

Many perceive that it is God leading them, but when they are led away from His One Body, the Church, that leading is not coming from the HS.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus did establish His church. The CC started about 300AD.

I am sorry that you were given lies to believe, Doki. I hope you will be able to stay with CAF until you get them corrected. I pray that you are also willing to discover your own family history. In it, you will find the proof that what you were told is a lie.

 

[guanophore]

Your bio says you’re a former Catholic; yet you don’t know what the Douay Rheims is???

Her posts indicated that she was very poorly catechized.

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

Mary was already essentially married. So if she had intended to have relations with Joseph–ever–the question she asks makes no sense. Especially after Jesus was born.

It speaks to the fact that she intended to be celibate–a consecrated virgin–for her entire life. Not just before the birth of Jesus.

Well I thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but I’m not sure I can find what your stating in the bible. That’s what I’m looking for - not an assumption or an opinion. I think my question makes sense - just looking for an answer.

 

[guanophore]

Let us try to be mindful that CAF is here also for puerile, juvenile fallen away Catholics so they can find their way back home.

Many of us left the faith in this frame of mind, and finally found out that it was we ourselves who were at fault, not the Holy and Blameless Bride of Christ. If we had understood it, we never would have left.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

My goodness, it was a joke!!! Intended for humorous effect. (At least I hope it was… if not, then for shame)

And I know that you dont want to hear it Tweetymom, but if you persistently hold and espouse beliefs that are contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church and its Magisterium, you are no longer Catholic regardless of your feelings. That may be hard to accept, but it is true. There is no wiggle room there, no matter what “father says”. And if your priest is telling you ABC is OK in the Church, then he is wrong as well (that would be good for you, but bad for him (James 3:1 and others) since teachers are judged more strictly than others).

I am sorry, but its true.

And all of this is off topic, since it was how to prove the truth of the CC. I believe that Irenaeus said it best in Against Heresies: Book 3: Chapter 3

“2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.”

If you feel that you know the truth better than Irenaeus, one of the fathers of ALL Christian thought, then be my guest. My pride is not so great as to assume my knowledge to be greater than that of Irenaeus.

Pax,

FSC

Then that would mean some of the churches CC may be teaching other things…Perhaps a little more protestant…Oh by the way I like the shaking hands, and the hugs you now give…the breaking of bread and the drinking of wine…althought we use grape juice as some people are alcaholics and to use wine wound cause a problem for them…We have done that before I joined the Assemblies which has been a Long time…See you are catching up.

 

[PRmerger]

Well I thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but I’m not sure I can find what your stating in the bible. That’s what I’m looking for - not an assumption or an opinion. I think my question makes sense - just looking for an answer.

It is not an assumption or an opinion.

If Mary was planning to have marital relations with Jesus–and remember, she was betrothed–then her question in Luke 1:34 makes absolutely no sense.

Again, if I were engaged to be married and an angel appeared to me and said, “You’re going to conceive a child”, I’d say, “Yay!” not, “How’s that going to happen?”

The question indicates she is never going to engage in marital relations.

Otherwise, why would she ask? She’s engaged! Even as a 14 yr old girl (or young teen) she would have known how babies were created and realized, “Yup, I’m going to have marital relations, so I’m going to have a baby at some point!”

 

[PRmerger]

Well I thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but I’m not sure I can find what your stating in the bible. That’s what I’m looking for - not an assumption or an opinion. I think my question makes sense - just looking for an answer.

And as for having to find things stated in the Bible, or you can’t believe in them…

I am certain that you believe quite a few things that are not stated in the Bible, such as:

-the trinity

-that Jesus had 2 natures and 2 wills

-that there will be no more apostles

-that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle

-the canon of Scripture is closed

and, that good ole Cathlic standby: the canon of Scripture itself.

 

[guanophore]

Was not Israel God’s chosen people? They were responsible for the OT. Did they stay faithful to God? Was that God’s inability to force them to stay pure, or did God give them a free will with which they chose false doctrines and false gods?

Yes, they were God’s chosen people, responsible for the OT. Their lack of personal faithfulness to God is irrelevant. The question is, is God unable to preserve His revelation of Himself to man? if not, then nothing in the OT is valid, either. If His ability to preserve His word were dependent upon the shortcomings of man, then your premise would be true, and there are no Scriptures that we can be confident came from God. All of them would be subject to human corruption.

-QUOTE=Dokimas;6070949]-

Do you think the CC replaced Israel?

No, but the CC did adopt the collection of Jewish Holy Writings that was used by Jesus and His Apostles, that being the Alexandrian Septuagint.

What you are saying is that the ineptitude of man is stronger than the power of God to preserve His word in the Church.

 

[guanophore]

I understand. Thanks be to God for His mighty healing power!

I used to BE Leslie. I was an ignorant cradle Catholic who was attending the Assemblies of God, steeped in my fundamentalism and anti-Catholicism. The Truth of God proclaimed through His One Body, the Church does miracles.

 

[Dokimas]

Well, clearly you DO have a problem with God’s part, as Jesus is God, and He said “upon this Rock I willl build MY CHURCH”. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is built by God,a nd preserved by Him through the power of the HS… What you are suggesting here is that the gates of hell (people taking control of what belongs to God) can actually prevail against what He has built. You are saying He is a weakling, or a liar, or too disinterested to preserve what He founded.

All these things you testifiy to are correct, except the last. The immortal immutable Son of God has, indeed, chosen to manifest Himself to the world through His Body, the Church. You are trying to behead Him from His Body, not sure why?

The Church only mediates as Christ Himself. It is He who is present to us in and through the Church, His Body. He has no body now on earth but the Church, until He comes again.

I trust God to speak to individuals! He speaks to me everyday, though some days I don’t like what He has to say much.

He does not lead individuals into a different direction than he has led the Church.

Many perceive that it is God leading them, but when they are led away from His One Body, the Church, that leading is not coming from the HS.

You’re welcome to continue to hold the untruth that I have a problem with Jesus. I’ll try again to set the record straight: I have trouble with those who put words in the mouth of Jesus and come up with understandings not intended by Him (of course this is MO).​

I agree He leads all according to how He leads His church. That’s why unbiblical teachings by an individual or by a church should be avoided.​

God **would not **lead any of His children away from His Body, His church. However, you and I disagree with what that exactly means.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, they were God’s chosen people, responsible for the OT. Their lack of personal faithfulness to God is irrelevant. The question is, is God unable to preserve His revelation of Himself to man? if not, then nothing in the OT is valid, either. If His ability to preserve His word were dependent upon the shortcomings of man, then your premise would be true, and there are no Scriptures that we can be confident came from God. All of them would be subject to human corruption.

-QUOTE=Dokimas;6070949]-

Do you think the CC replaced Israel?

No, but the CC did adopt the collection of Jewish Holy Writings that was used by Jesus and His Apostles, that being the Alexandrian Septuagint.

What you are saying is that the ineptitude of man is stronger than the power of God to preserve His word in the Church.​

I would serve you better if you wouldn’t put words in my mouth. Besides the fact it’s not fair, it’s often very incorrect. As I’ve said in one form or another, the problem isn’t with God, it’s with us and with all churches, including yours. The Gospel is getting out in spite of our weakness, which reveals the power of God. How awesome!!!

 

[Dokimas]

Guanophore: “Yes, they were God’s chosen people, responsible for the OT. Their lack of personal faithfulness to God is irrelevant.”

In the context of the post I was commenting on, it’s quite relevant. The context of my comment was the false idea the Church must be infallible because God is powerful. My comment showed that God didn’t use His power to keep Israel infallible so why would He keep the CC infallible? God uses our infallibility to show His mercy and grace and salvation.

 

[guanophore]

As I’ve said in one form or another, the problem isn’t with God, it’s with us and with all churches, including yours. The Gospel is getting out in spite of our weakness, which reveals the power of God. How awesome!!!

God working through fallible men is exactly what Sacred Tradition is. It is He, preserving the Truth of His gospel in us, and through us. It is, indeed, AWESOME!

 

[Dokimas]

God working through fallible men is exactly what Sacred Tradition is. It is He, preserving the Truth of His gospel in us, and through us. It is, indeed, AWESOME!

How wonderful to be in agreement with you, Guanophore.