Prove it!

[rovimax]

There’s enough twisting of Scriptures and tweeking of history to go around.

Who’s twisting Scriptures and tweeking history?

Its whose authority you believe, you will know by their fruits…

 

[PRmerger]

-God’s church leaders should never for a tradition on anyone and say they’ve sinned who don’t follow the tradition.

You say that with such authority, Dokimas.

Do you have a Scripture verse to back you up?

(BTW, a “tradition” is different from “discipline”).

 

[izoid]

I don’t think Paul was speaking of fasting in Colossians when he penned the words about filling up what is lacking in Christ’s suffering. Fasting can’t be compared to the suffering of the Lord nor the suffering of the early disciples or the martyrs. I’ve fasted once for 6-8 days (it was 30 yrs ago so I don’t remember which). It was NOT suffering. It was tough at first cuz I love eating. It got easier each day. Let’s be real here.​

God’s church leaders should never for a tradition on anyone and say they’ve sinned who don’t follow the tradition.

There is nothing that we can suffer, except death, that is anywhere near what Christ went through. It is clear, however, that we are to pick up our crosses and follow Jesus. Just because our suffering is not on the level of Christ’s does not negate it’s worthiness.

Christ had an expectation thaqt His followers would fast. To not live up to His expectations of us is sin, is it not?

 

[izoid]

So if I tell my children to jump off a bridge, they should or their disobeying God’s authority?

This is a pretty weak statement, but I think you already know that. ​

BTW, Moses didn’t lead them, the Fire by Night and the Cloud by Day lead them. OH, BTW, the Israelites saw some HUGE miracles at the hand of Moses; those miracles established him as their authority.

What is your point here?

 

[izoid]

Funny how some well meaning non-catholics say some harsh things to you (collectively) and you strike back that they are catholic haters and bashers. For the most part, I’d say those who say harsh things to you love you and want the best for you.

This is a canned protestant answer to justify nastiness and harsh words. I was taught this very thing early in my protestant life and it never really seemed right to me.

Think about it. I am being nasty and mean, attacking you views and doing so in a hostile way. I do all this because I love you and am being good to you. Too bad you don’t see it but love is not expressed in kindness, rather in hostility. Does this really sound right to yoou?

 

[izoid]

Let’s look at it from the point of view of those you mention: the lurkers and seekers. If I was a lurker and I read your post I’d say, ‘Maybe this TweetyMom had a good reason to distance herself from the CC.’​

This is not a private forum. If you have harsh things for TweetyMom there is a way to say them and not in public. Remember, she is one loved by Jesus too.​

As for my business: it’s my business to stand up for the weeker when under attack. And on this forum, it becomes my business because none of your catholic friends put sayings like yours in its place. If other catholics would make a stand against such attacks, then us non-catholics would not have to.

When someone comes to a public forum and claims to be something, a Catholic in this case, and then contradicts many teaching of that group to which they claim membership, is it not correct to point out the inconsistencies?

If I went to a Calvinist forum and posted erroneous teachings and beliefs about what TULIP stands for, would it be acceptable? Should the offending party not be publically corrected? Should we allow the mistruths to be perpetuated through our silence?

 

[PRmerger]

So you’re saying the CC has something in common with the Koran and the Book of Mormon; you all claim inspiration.

Well, if you put it that way, yes. The CC does claim that the Bible is inspired, so I suppose it’s in the same genre as the Koran and Book of Mormon.

But, then again, your church also has something in common with the Koran and the Book of Mormon as well, for doesn’t your church claim the Bible is inspired as well?

Of course, Dokimas, you know that is not the point. Here’s the point:

-some Christians scoff at the authority of the CC

-we say: if you believe in the Bible, it’s because of the authority of the CC,

-they say: no , we believe in the Bible because it says it’s inspired.

-we say: well, then, you must believe in the Koran as well, 'cause it says it’s inspired too!

-they say:

well, I’m at a loss as to what they say because there is no other logical response.

The Bible’s inspiration to me is based on the resurrection of Jesus…

The Gospel of the Nazoreans writes about the resurrection of Jesus. Why don’t you believe that’s inspired?

 

[izoid]

BTW, it wasn’t Timothy that wrote 1 Timothy.​

Your last statement seems to, in your thinking, place the tradition of the CC over the Bible. Sounds (can’t find the right term here) … to me. I think TweetyMom’s warnings may be the loving statements over the last several posts if your statement is the belief of catholics.

I do not think that is what is being said. The issue is…you do not accept the authority of the Catholic Church. You claim that 1 TIM 3:16 teaches Scripture only as your authority, yet the Scripture that was being spoken of in this verse is the OT, the NT did not exist. You hold to the NT as authoritative however. By what authority do you do so?

BTW…Catholics do not disagree regarding the NT and it’s inspiration.

 

[PRmerger]

-As for my business: it’s my business to stand up for the weeker when under attack. And on this forum, it becomes my business because none of your catholic friends put sayings like yours in its place. If other catholics would make a stand against such attacks, then us non-catholics would not have to.

Fair enough, Dokimas.

I don’t begrudge you admonishing people to be charitable.

As you ought not begrudge us the right to admonish as well.

 

[PRmerger]

Has Jesus took back the ‘command’ to fast? Did He call it sin not to? The church in it’s authority to ‘bind’ or ‘loose’ can make anything a sin or make what is a sin not a sin???

The CC, as has already been stated, Dokimas, has never said that eating meat is a sin. It is the disobedience of the authority of the church that’s a sin.

If you tell your child not to eat a cookie, and she does, she’s guilty of disobeying you. There’s nothing objectively wrong with eating a cookie.

 

[tweetymom]

The CC, as has already been stated, Dokimas, has never said that eating meat is a sin. It is the disobedience of the authority of the church that’s a sin.

If you tell your child not to eat a cookie, and she does, she’s guilty of disobeying you. There’s nothing objectively wrong with eating a cookie.

When I was a child the Nuns told us that eating meat on Fridays was a sin.

 

[onenow1]

Has Jesus took back the ‘command’ to fast?

No !
Dokimas/:

Did He call it sin not to?

This sould have explained Jesus’s position :Matt: 18-20 Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and people came and said to him, “Why do John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?” Jesus goes on to say they will ! This is a command Doki; In the OT God says His words will not come back to Him void.

Dokimas:

The church in it’s authority to ‘bind’ or ‘loose’ can make anything a sin or make what is a sin not a sin???

Since church is the body of Christ any offense against the body should be considered sin;The Holy Spirit will guide the Church in such matters not us as individuals that would be obsurd; In essence I would be my own judge if that were the case ! As far as making sin not a sin do you have an example of this?

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

 

[tweetymom]

When I was a child the Nuns told us that eating meat on Fridays was a sin.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Agreed. Individualism is an easier route. When one is not comfortable with certain doctrines, adjust them to suit you by twisting the interpretations you read.

Example: “Huh, Peter is the Rock Christ built His Church on? No way! I can’t believe that. It just has to mean something else. Ahh, I know, it has to mean Peter is a little pebble and Christ is the Rock. No, even better. It must mean that it’s only His faith that the Church is built upon. Ahh, I’m glad God revealed that to me. I was getting worried there for a bit”.

I love this!!!

I don’t think Paul was speaking of fasting in Colossians when he penned the words about filling up what is lacking in Christ’s suffering. Fasting can’t be compared to the suffering of the Lord nor the suffering of the early disciples or the martyrs. I’ve fasted once for 6-8 days (it was 30 yrs ago so I don’t remember which). It was NOT suffering. It was tough at first cuz I love eating. It got easier each day. Let’s be real here.​

God’s church leaders should never for a tradition on anyone and say they’ve sinned who don’t follow the tradition.

^asked and answered

There is nothing that we can suffer, except death, that is anywhere near what Christ went through. It is clear, however, that we are to pick up our crosses and follow Jesus. Just because our suffering is not on the level of Christ’s does not negate it’s worthiness.

Christ had an expectation thaqt His followers would fast. To not live up to His expectations of us is sin, is it not?

Well, if you put it that way, yes. The CC does claim that the Bible is inspired, so I suppose it’s in the same genre as the Koran and Book of Mormon.

But, then again, your church also has something in common with the Koran and the Book of Mormon as well, for doesn’t your church claim the Bible is inspired as well?

Of course, Dokimas, you know that is not the point. Here’s the point:

-some Christians scoff at the authority of the CC

-we say: if you believe in the Bible, it’s because of the authority of the CC,

-they say: no , we believe in the Bible because it says it’s inspired.

-we say: well, then, you must believe in the Koran as well, 'cause it says it’s inspired too!

-they say:

well, I’m at a loss as to what they say because there is no other logical response.

The Gospel of the Nazoreans writes about the resurrection of Jesus. Why don’t you believe that’s inspired?

i enjoy reading your posts more and more PR. Not that mine is a ringing recommendation, but Thanks for being here.

When I was a child the Nuns told us that eating meat on Fridays was a sin.

Yes, eating meat on fridays was a sin, the sin of disobedience. The fast/penitential days are still in effect:

Canon 1250 All Fridays through the year and the time of Lent are penitential days and times throughout the entire Church.

Canon 1251 Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the conference of bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless (nisi) they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Canon 1252 All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence; all adults are bound by the law of fast up to the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors and parents are to see to it that minors who are not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are educated in an authentic sense of penance.

Canon 1253 It is for the conference of bishops to determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence and to substitute in whole or in part for fast and abstinence other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety.

So to NOT do penance and fast on fridays and designated days is a sin because of disobedience and disobedience alone. the rest of this has been discussed so I wont go into the moral aspect.

And I know that my Church has the authority to make decisions like this based on my own reason. My own ability to understand and to research. I have found NOTHING in the Catholic Church that disagrees with what the Bible teaches. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. This was surprising at first until I learned a bit more, now it makes sense. But they do have authority, and Pope Benedict XVI sits on the chair of Peter, which is equivalent to the seat of Moses… It has the authority given by God to the initiator of the office.

FSC

 

[PRmerger]

i enjoy reading your posts more and more PR. Not that mine is a ringing recommendation, but Thanks for being here.

Right back at cha, FSC!

 

[tweetymom]

I love this!!!

^asked and answered

i enjoy reading your posts more and more PR. Not that mine is a ringing recommendation, but Thanks for being here.

Yes, eating meat on fridays was a sin, the sin of disobedience. The fast/penitential days are still in effect:

So to NOT do penance and fast on fridays and designated days is a sin because of disobedience and disobedience alone. the rest of this has been discussed so I wont go into the moral aspect.

And I know that my Church has the authority to make decisions like this based on my own reason. My own ability to understand and to research. I have found NOTHING in the Catholic Church that disagrees with what the Bible teaches. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. This was surprising at first until I learned a bit more, now it makes sense. But they do have authority, and Pope Benedict XVI sits on the chair of Peter, which is equivalent to the seat of Moses… It has the authority given by God to the initiator of the office.

FSC

I am really glad for you that you find everything in the Church agreeable and may God be with you on your journey with our Savior.

 

[Carlan]

When I was a child the Nuns told us that eating meat on Fridays was a sin.

Remember tweety in those days breaking the fasting law of no meat once a week was explained as disobedience and a sin. As we grew in our faith it was taken seriously. So you blame the good Nuns. :shrug:Carlan

 

[tweetymom]

Remember tweety in those days breaking the fasting law of no meat once a week was explained as disobedience and a sin. As we grew in our faith it was taken seriously. So you blame the good Nuns. :shrug:Carlan

Did I say I blamed the Nuns? I stated that we were told that eating meat on Fridays was a sin, no explaination. As a matter of fact we were only taught the things we were supposed to do not the whys. I am not per se blaming anyone. Have a wonderful Christmas and on your journey with our Savior, and may His Grace shine upon you.

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

Hello (name removed by moderator): May I comment on your what I think your referencing to in the Nicene Creed?

Excerpt from the Nicene Creed:

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

Check your version. The original version I believe is not written “Catholic and apostolic” Church for a reason.

The word “catholic” doesn’t mean “Catholic Church.” There is a big difference. It means catholic - no cap - meaning the whole Christian body or church.

Protestants follow this Creed too.

And it’s beautiful enough to repeat here:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages.
Light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and Mary the Virgin, and became man.
He was also crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried.
And He rose again on the third day, according to the scriptures.
And He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father.
And He will come again with glory, to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I profess one baptism for the remission of sins.
I expect the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

 

[tweetymom]

Hello (name removed by moderator): May I comment on your what I think your referencing to in the Nicene Creed?

Excerpt from the Nicene Creed:

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

Check your version. The original version I believe is not written “Catholic and apostolic” Church for a reason.

The word “catholic” doesn’t mean “Catholic Church.” There is a big difference. It means catholic - no cap - meaning the whole Christian body or church.

Protestants follow this Creed too.

And it’s beautiful enough to repeat here:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages.
Light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and Mary the Virgin, and became man.
He was also crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried.
And He rose again on the third day, according to the scriptures.
And He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father.
And He will come again with glory, to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I profess one baptism for the remission of sins.
I expect the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

Thank you jars it is beautiful and in my missalet there is no capitol on the catholic .