Prove it!

[FidesSpesCarita]

Hello (name removed by moderator): May I comment on your what I think your referencing to in the Nicene Creed?

Excerpt from the Nicene Creed:

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

Check your version. The original version I believe is not written “Catholic and apostolic” Church for a reason.

The word “catholic” doesn’t mean “Catholic Church.” There is a big difference. It means catholic - no cap - meaning the whole Christian body or church.

Protestants follow this Creed too.

And it’s beautiful enough to repeat here:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages.
Light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and Mary the Virgin, and became man.
He was also crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried.
And He rose again on the third day, according to the scriptures.
And He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father.
And He will come again with glory, to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I profess one baptism for the remission of sins.
I expect the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

its only the protestant faiths that make any differentiation between Catholic and catholic. For 1500 years they were the same. So to say that they were not referring to the Catholic church (the ONLY true church at the time, check with St. Augustine if you dont believe me) is fallacious, fatuous, and downright wrong. Again, sorry, but its the truth.

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[Dokimas]

I would not believe in the Bible were it not for the authority of the CC (paraphrasing St. Augustine).

In fact, *anyone *who believes in the Bible is giving tacit approval to the CC’s authority.

Which is why it is so puzzling that people like Tweety (meaning, Protestants) bristle about the CC’s authority, yet each and every time they quote from Scripture (like their favorite verse about judging–actually, it’s the one about not judging, but they ignore all the other ones that say we must judge) they’re giving tacit approval to the CC’s authority.

For it is the Catholic Church which told her that the Gospel of Thomas is not inspired, but the Gospel of Mark is!

I don’t bristle because you think the CC has authority. However I do cringe when you make statements that place the CC above the Bible and clearly you have done so in this post. It seems a very dangerous position to take.​

There are many non-catholic Chritian theologians that have revealed the Thomas book is not inspired.​

May I correct you by saying: anyone that believes the 66 books of the Bible are inspired are give the Holy Spirit His due thanks. He’s the One inspiring, He’s the One perfect, He’s the One all knowing, He’s the One that knows the Mind of God. It is the Holy Spirit,not a church, we must look to to guide, convict and instruct. Sure He uses churches to help, but it is His job and His alone.

 

[Dokimas]

Who’s twisting Scriptures and tweeking history?

Its whose authority you believe, you will know by their fruits…

When a belief is in contradiction with the straight forward reading of the Bible, then there may be a twisting. When important parts of history is left out or added to then there is a tweeking.​

If the ‘shoe fits, wear it.’ Of course the Holy Spirit will have to bring conviction. We don’t want to admit what we believe is ‘suspect.’​

 

[Dokimas]

You say that with such authority, Dokimas.

Do you have a Scripture verse to back you up?

(BTW, a “tradition” is different from “discipline”).

The authority rests with the Scriptures, there’s know Scripture that says we have the authority to decide what’s sin or what’s not sin. God IS the ONLY judge of what is and what is not sin. So based on that point, if it is correct Scripturally, that’s my Scriptural basis.

 

[Dokimas]

There is nothing that we can suffer, except death, that is anywhere near what Christ went through. It is clear, however, that we are to pick up our crosses and follow Jesus. Just because our suffering is not on the level of Christ’s does not negate it’s worthiness.

Christ had an expectation thaqt His followers would fast. To not live up to His expectations of us is sin, is it not?

Fasting is not suffering. At least I don’t remember any Scripture that equates fasting with and as suffering.​

However, you may be correct that being forced to fast is suffering. I’m not sure it rises to suffering for Jesus though as the passage in Col is referring to, IMO.

 

[Dokimas]

Originally Posted by Dokimas​

So if I tell my children to jump off a bridge, they should or their disobeying God’s authority?

Izoid: [SIGN]This is a pretty weak statement, but I think you already know that.[/SIGN]

It’s extreme but if we’re not careful, we’ll trust a teaching that’s not true because we’ve misplaced trust and not been will to test it for ourselves.

BTW, Moses didn’t lead them, the Fire by Night and the Cloud by Day lead them. OH, BTW, the Israelites saw some HUGE miracles at the hand of Moses; those miracles established him as their authority.

Izoid: [SIGN]What is your point here?[/SIGN]

It is helpful to read a comment in the context that it was written. When I make a comment like that it is a response to something and I quote it. The person I was commenting to said Moses lead Israel wrongly, that’s why they gave his such a hard time and went astray. I believe the person sort of clarified it later, I still felt I should make it real clear Moses lead the people where God lead them. God did not lead them wrongly.

 

[Dokimas]

This is a canned protestant answer to justify nastiness and harsh words. I was taught this very thing early in my protestant life and it never really seemed right to me.

Think about it. I am being nasty and mean, attacking you views and doing so in a hostile way. I do all this because I love you and am being good to you. Too bad you don’t see it but love is not expressed in kindness, rather in hostility. Does this really sound right to yoou?

Correction, that’s my answer and its not canned. It wasn’t intended to be nast; I suppose it may be harsh but the truth can be harsh to some.​

Your correct about love and nastiness don’t go together (I guess that’s your point). Why do you and other from your side of the discussion act the way your admitting is not loving? I’ve harshly tried to point this out before.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I don’t bristle because you think the CC has authority. However I do cringe when you make statements that place the CC above the Bible and clearly you have done so in this post. It seems a very dangerous position to take.​

There are many non-catholic Chritian theologians that have revealed the Thomas book is not inspired.​

May I correct you by saying: anyone that believes the 66 books of the Bible are inspired are give the Holy Spirit His due thanks. He’s the One inspiring, He’s the One perfect, He’s the One all knowing, He’s the One that knows the Mind of God. It is the Holy Spirit,not a church, we must look to to guide, convict and instruct. Sure He uses churches to help, but it is His job and His alone.

First, the CC is not above the bible, but we produced it. It was the fruit of the Holy Spirit acting through our members. As such, we have the authority (biblically, from Christ) to interpret it.

Second. Many many people have shown other gospels as not inspired. How? Outside the Church there is no authority given for interpretation of scripture.

Third. there are 73 books in the Bible. And the Holy Spirit guides people to the truth. The only place that contains the Entirety of the truth given to man thus far (cant remember the verse, but something along the lines of I will send you another paraclete to instruct you in the truth, you are not ready for all truth now, but you will be taught… anyway, you probably remember what I am talking about) is the CC.

Fasting is not suffering. At least I don’t remember any Scripture that equates fasting with and as suffering.​

However, you may be correct that being forced to fast is suffering. I’m not sure it rises to suffering for Jesus though as the passage in Col is referring to, IMO.

Fasting is hard for most people. That is why the Jews in the old testament did it. That is why the Pharisees did it. It was something difficult that you could then offer up to our Lord as a sort of sacrifice for him. A way of partaking/joining in his sufferings. No, there is nothing that can come close to the sufferings of Christ, but should we all strive to be like him? Shouldnt we all try to do things FOR Him? That is the purpose of fasting.

And as an aside, we are still keeping you and yours in our prayers (hopefully I speak for everyone on this thread when I say that, I know I am).

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[Dokimas]

Well, if you put it that way, yes. The CC does claim that the Bible is inspired, so I suppose it’s in the same genre as the Koran and Book of Mormon.

But, then again, your church also has something in common with the Koran and the Book of Mormon as well, for doesn’t your church claim the Bible is inspired as well?

Of course, Dokimas, you know that is not the point. Here’s the point:

Please note the context of my comment. I think you’ll find someone saying that believing the Bible is inspired without an authority is akin to the belief of Mormons and Muslims. Context, context, context.​

The authority upon which I base the Bible being inspired is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Please note the context of my comment. I think you’ll find someone saying that believing the Bible is inspired without an authority is akin to the belief of Mormons and Muslims. Context, context, context.​

The authority upon which I base the Bible being inspired is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The resurrection of Christ is biblical. That statement is akin to saying I believe the bible is true because it says its true. Circular argumentation gets us nowhere.

And it is very much akin to the belief of Mormons. THey have no authority save Joseph Smith. Muslims the same, but with Mohamed.

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[Dokimas]

The CC, as has already been stated, Dokimas, has never said that eating meat is a sin. It is the disobedience of the authority of the church that’s a sin.

If you tell your child not to eat a cookie, and she does, she’s guilty of disobeying you. There’s nothing objectively wrong with eating a cookie.

Where, in the post of mine you quoted for this response, did I say anything about eating meat? I believe I said fasting and may I add, force fasting.​

Your child example may superficially make your point, but if falls short to explain the CC changing its mind about fasting on Fridays.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Where, in the post of mine you quoted for this response, did I say anything about eating meat? I believe I said fasting and may I add, force fasting.​

Your child example may superficially make your point, but if falls short to explain the CC changing its mind about fasting on Fridays.

Read my post above (836 I believe) re: fasting

 

[Dokimas]

This sould have explained Jesus’s position :Matt: 18-20 Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and people came and said to him, “Why do John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?” Jesus goes on to say they will ! This is a command Doki; In the OT God says His words will not come back to Him void.

Since church is the body of Christ any offense against the body should be considered sin;The Holy Spirit will guide the Church in such matters not us as individuals that would be obsurd; In essence I would be my own judge if that were the case ! As far as making sin not a sin do you have an example of this?

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

Commands in the Bible seem to be quite obvious. In the context of what Jesus was saying, it doesn’t seem to rise to a command but a statement of fact of what His disciples will do. Let’s be careful not to read into a Scripture what is not there.

 

[Dokimas]

Since church is the body of Christ any offense against the body should be considered sin;The Holy Spirit will guide the Church in such matters not us as individuals that would be obsurd; In essence I would be my own judge if that were the case ! As far as making sin not a sin do you have an example of this?

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

Yes: not fasting before rule change – a sin; not fasting after the rule change – not a sin.

 

[Dokimas]

its only the protestant faiths that make any differentiation between Catholic and catholic. For 1500 years they were the same. So to say that they were not referring to the Catholic church (the ONLY true church at the time, check with St. Augustine if you dont believe me) is fallacious, fatuous, and downright wrong. Again, sorry, but its the truth.

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Maybe that’s because there is a difference. Catholic means universal, doesn’t it? We believe in a universal (catholic) church made up of believers. It’s invisible for two reasons: it has no walls and because we don’t know who is and who isn’t truly a child of God by rebirth. We don’t know a persons heart, only God does. Sure we can tell some things by actions and words. However actions and words can come from a deceptive heart.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Yes: not fasting before rule change – a sin; not fasting after the rule change – not a sin.

Read the canon law in #836 above

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Maybe that’s because there is a difference. Catholic means universal, doesn’t it? We believe in a universal (catholic) church made up of believers. It’s invisible for two reasons: it has no walls and because we don’t know who is and who isn’t truly a child of God by rebirth. We don’t know a persons heart, only God does. Sure we can tell some things by actions and words. However actions and words can come from a deceptive heart.

Are you sure you arent Catholic? This seems to be straight from a Seminary course and entirely in line with Catholic thought on the matter.

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EDIT: We can know whether they follow apostolic teaching, however, based upon actions and what statements and beliefs they espouse.

 

[Dokimas]

First, the CC is not above the bible (agreed), but we produced it (your opinion). It was the fruit of the Holy Spirit acting through our members (depending upon how you mean this: agreed). As such, we have the authority (biblically, from Christ) to interpret it (if you mean only the CC and its members – disagreed).

Second. Many many people have shown other gospels as not inspired. How? Outside the Church there is no authority given for interpretation of scripture.​

Scholarly word of comparing what is said with what has bee accepted as inspired. As for the CC being the only authority to interpret - disagree and would caution anyone who believes this.

Third. there are 73 books in the Bible. And the Holy Spirit guides people to the truth. The only place that contains the Entirety of the truth given to man thus far (cant remember the verse, but something along the lines of I will send you another paraclete to instruct you in the truth, you are not ready for all truth now, but you will be taught… anyway, you probably remember what I am talking about) is the CC.​

There are 66 books accepted by much of the Protestant ‘world’.

Fasting is hard for most people. That is why the Jews in the old testament did it. That is why the Pharisees did it. It was something difficult that you could then offer up to our Lord as a sort of sacrifice for him. A way of partaking/joining in his sufferings. No, there is nothing that can come close to the sufferings of Christ, but should we all strive to be like him? Shouldnt we all try to do things FOR Him? That is the purpose of fasting.​

We’re are psychologically addicted to food and that’s what makes it hard. I dare say that doesn’t bring it to the level of what Paul was saying in the Colossians passage brought up by someone.

And as an aside, we are still keeping you and yours in our prayers (hopefully I speak for everyone on this thread when I say that, I know I am). Thank you very much.

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[FidesSpesCarita]

Originally Posted by FidesSpesCarita View Post
First, the CC is not above the bible (agreed), but we produced it (your opinion). It was the fruit of the Holy Spirit acting through our members (depending upon how you mean this: agreed). As such, we have the authority (biblically, from Christ) to interpret it (if you mean only the CC and its members – disagreed).

Tha Catholic Church is the only thing given AUTHORITY to interpret the bible. It is all open to inerpretation, but, just as I cannot interpret the LAW with authority such as a judge, others lack that authority as well

Second. Many many people have shown other gospels as not inspired. How? Outside the Church there is no authority given for interpretation of scripture.​

Scholarly word of comparing what is said with what has bee accepted as inspired. As for the CC being the only authority to interpret - disagree and would caution anyone who believes this. Agree with the scholarly statement, disagree with your disagreement (theres a tongue twister for ya) and caution anyone who disagrees with the Church.

Third. there are 73 books in the Bible. And the Holy Spirit guides people to the truth. The only place that contains the Entirety of the truth given to man thus far (cant remember the verse, but something along the lines of I will send you another paraclete to instruct you in the truth, you are not ready for all truth now, but you will be taught… anyway, you probably remember what I am talking about) is the CC.​

There are 66 books accepted by much of the Protestant ‘world’. How many books the ‘protestant world’ has is irrespective of the truth that there are 73. there were 73 for 1500 years and for 200 in the CC, but in the 1500’s y’all (I understand not you, but those whome you follow) decided you didnt like/approve of 6 and cut them out. That sounds like altering the word of God to me…

Fasting is hard for most people. That is why the Jews in the old testament did it. That is why the Pharisees did it. It was something difficult that you could then offer up to our Lord as a sort of sacrifice for him. A way of partaking/joining in his sufferings. No, there is nothing that can come close to the sufferings of Christ, but should we all strive to be like him? Shouldnt we all try to do things FOR Him? That is the purpose of fasting.​

We’re are psychologically addicted to food and that’s what makes it hard. I dare say that doesn’t bring it to the level of what Paul was saying in the Colossians passage brought up by someone. lol, only psychologically addicted to food? I daresay that if you quit your “psychological” addiction you would perish posthaste. It is a physical addiction with real physical hardships.

And as an aside, we are still keeping you and yours in our prayers (hopefully I speak for everyone on this thread when I say that, I know I am). Thank you very much.

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edit: Re-reading my replies, they could seem quite irreverant and somewhat rude. I apologize if they come across that way, that was not my intent.

 

[izoid]

Fasting is not suffering. At least I don’t remember any Scripture that equates fasting with and as suffering.​

However, you may be correct that being forced to fast is suffering. I’m not sure it rises to suffering for Jesus though as the passage in Col is referring to, IMO.

YOu are certainly entitled to your opinion, regardless of how wrong it is. Why didn’t you answer my question?

Christ had an expectation that His followers would fast. To not live up to His expectations of us is sin, is it not?