Prove me wrong (mostly to protestants here)

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Count Chocula:
They then attest that the Bible is true because they say it is. This “circular logic” can be attributed to pretty much any religion with anything that is scriptural.
These types of arguments really don’t go anywhere. Ultimately everyone is left in the exact same place of inferring the most likely explanation from the evidence and experiences at hand. Even the supposed “spiral argument” is nothing but this - a plain old inductive argument from experience to conclusion.

We all accept certain premises without evidence (such as the reliability of our senses), then we build on these with experience, either affirming or contradicting our foundational premises and prior experience. Get enough contradictory evidence, you will “convert” your mode of thinking and accept a new perspective and the process of either confirming or contradicting continues.

ken
 
Go Leafs Go,

Unfortunately(fortunately?) for you, you do understand that the Catholic Church is the church Christ founded. If you walk away from it, you would be walking away from Christ no matter how you would try to justify it in the end. I’ll certainly put you in my prayers. Maybe the girlfriend would be as willing to “keep an open mind” and go to Mass.

Did you see the great thread posted in Apologetics on “how do Catholics hear the Gospel”? (ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ196.HTM Here is the link to the article, not the thread) It takes a missal and shows the “4 easy steps” a person has to take to become a Christian, presented each and every time at Mass. Maybe that would be a good place to start with your Girlfriend.

God Bless
 
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malta:
Go Leafs, find a new girlfriend. What she is asking you to do is nonsensical. What she means by fair chance is that you treat truth and falsehood as if they were the same.

Would you consider giving a “fair chance” to the proposition 2+2=5?

😃
Hi Everyone…I’m the girlfriend.
Malta, thank you for your ‘well thought out’ advice to my boyfriend. I had no clue that this was a counselling session on relationship matters! I’m going to be a psychologist, maybe we can swap tactics!!! As for my request for my boyfriend to seek out my faith, I would just prefer he cover all the corners of faith instead of living in ignorance as you would have him do. I’m sorry if you feel that your faith cannot stand up to opposition…maybe that’s something you should think about. God bless in believing whatever makes you sleep at night.
 
Protestants have ONLY the Bible as their basis for the Christian belief. ( And who protected the Bible for about 1600 years so the Protestants would have the Bible?) Protestants are a Bible-Only Faith.
Their faith stands on one leg, the Bible. Bible Only Theory people.

Catholics faith stands on Three legs, 1.The Bible , 2.The oral and written tradition of the early Church Fathers…the things the Apostles said that wasn’t written in the Bible AND 3. The teaching of thee Holy Spirit.

To turn your back on Holy Mother Church for a “girlfriend” is a worldly thing to do. The Apostles warned against loving the “world” more than God.😦
 
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skattas:
Hi Everyone…I’m the girlfriend.
Malta, thank you for your ‘well thought out’ advice to my boyfriend. I had no clue that this was a counselling session on relationship matters! I’m going to be a psychologist, maybe we can swap tactics!!! As for my request for my boyfriend to seek out my faith, I would just prefer he cover all the corners of faith instead of living in ignorance as you would have him do. I’m sorry if you feel that your faith cannot stand up to opposition…maybe that’s something you should think about. God bless in believing whatever makes you sleep at night.
You request your boyfriend to “seek out” your faith rather than “living in ignorance” in his Catholic faith. And you say you are going to be a psychologist. May I suggest that you examine your biases in your own mind and soul. You are asking more of your boyfriend than you are willing to do yourself–question and presumably forsake his faith. I would encourage you to consider the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true church of Jesus Christ–has been and always will be. God bless you and your boyfriend.
 
Couple of questions for you Exporter:
Protestants have ONLY the Bible as their basis for the Christian belief. ( And who protected the Bible for about 1600 years so the Protestants would have the Bible?) Protestants are a Bible-Only Faith.
Their faith stands on one leg, the Bible. Bible Only Theory people.
Who protected the God-breathed OT Scriptures for thousands of years before the NT era? What significance do you see that God could use a fallible people (the Jews) to recognize and protect His Word for thousands of years?
Catholics faith stands on Three legs, 1.The Bible , 2.The oral and written tradition of the early Church Fathers…the things the Apostles said that wasn’t written in the Bible AND 3. The teaching of thee Holy Spirit.
Can you give me one example of “the things the Apostles said that wasn’t written in the Bible” that is infallibly recognized as such by the RCC? Please provide sources (evidence) to support your answer.

Brian
 
BrianBerean << Who protected the God-breathed OT Scriptures for thousands of years before the NT era? >>

The Jewish people. But the OT canon wasn’t settled even at the time of Jesus. We know that from the various Church Fathers and Bishops who quoted various portions of the deuterocanonicals as Scripture, including yes even Jerome who called Sirach “Scripture” right here:

Does not the Scripture say: ‘Burden not thyself above thy power’ [Sirach 13:2]…” (Jerome, To Eustochium, Epistle 108, in NPNF2, VI:207)

And see this thread on Jerome discussed many months ago

And check out JND Kelly Early Christian Doctrines (pages 53-55) for the fuller OT canon (46 books vs. 39 books) that was always in use by the Church, whether in practice, at the Liturgy, “as Scripture,” etc.

BrianBerean << What significance do you see that God could use a fallible people (the Jews) to recognize and protect His Word for thousands of years? >>

God used fallible people, and when Jesus came on the scene he established an infallible Church. So we went from fallible to infallible protectors of God’s word and teaching. No problem. Jesus was infallible, His apostles were infallible (1 Thess 2:13; 1 Cor 2:4,7,13), and His Church in certain circumstances is infallible (Luke 10:16; Matt 18:17-18; 28:18-20; 1 Tim 3:15) since the Holy Spirit is infallible, the Church is the foundation of truth, and Jesus would be with His Church until the end of time, thus ensuring faithfulness to His teaching, as He promised. The Church follows the apostolic practice, “let him be anathema…” (Gal 1), etc excommunicating those not adhering to her teaching (although not used at Vatican II).

BrianBerean << Can you give me one example of “the things the Apostles said that wasn’t written in the Bible” that is infallibly recognized as such by the RCC? Please provide sources (evidence) to support your answer. >>

Yes, at least two: infant baptism and prayers for the dead.

Documentation here for infant baptism

The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.” (Origen, Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [AD 248])

A little article on Tertullian and infant baptism

And here for prayers for the dead and/or purgatory

As St.John Chrysostom wrote in the late 4th, early 5th century: “By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit.” (John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 3:4-10 [c. AD 402] or NPNF1 XIII:197)

Now where in the world did he get that idea? From the apostles, as he said. Hooray, I win. 😛 You wanted documentation. 👍

Phil P
 
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PhilVaz:
BrianBerean << Can you give me one example of “the things the Apostles said that wasn’t written in the Bible” that is infallibly recognized as such by the RCC? Please provide sources (evidence) to support your answer. >>

Yes, at least two: infant baptism and prayers for the dead.

Documentation here for infant baptism

The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.” (Origen, Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [AD 248])

A little article on Tertullian and infant baptism

And here for prayers for the dead and/or purgatory

As St.John Chrysostom wrote in the late 4th, early 5th century: “By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit.” (John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 3:4-10 [c. AD 402] or NPNF1 XIII:197)

Now where in the world did he get that idea? From the apostles, as he said. Hooray, I win. 😛 You wanted documentation. 👍

Phil P
Infant baptism is in fact touched on in the bible…see your own link for biblical quotes…

as for prayers for the dead, seems like a perfect example of the church creating something for it’s own benefit…something that Jesus never taught nor intended to have happen, and since pergatory NEVER appears anywhere in the bible, this appears to be a false teaching…
 
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PhilVaz:
BrianBerean << Who protected the God-breathed OT Scriptures for thousands of years before the NT era? >>

The Jewish people. But the OT canon wasn’t settled even at the time of Jesus.
Althought the OT canon isn’t explicitly listed in Scripture. There are several good reason to beleive the canon was generally agreed upon at the time of Jesus. One reason being that Jesus repeatedly held people accountable for knowing the Scriptures. How could Jesus hold people accountable for knowing the Scriptures if He didn’t expect them to know what was Scripture and what wasn’t? Another point is that Jesus must have known the extent of the canon, right? You wouldn’t claim that He didn’t know what was Scripture and what wasn’t? FF Bruce makes also makes the case when the “Law, Psalms, and Prophets” are referred to that was how the Jews described their canon. I also think the best explanation for Luke 11:51 is that Jesus was referring to the Hebrew OT canon.
We know that from the various Church Fathers and Bishops who quoted various portions of the deuterocanonicals as Scripture, including yes even Jerome who called Sirach “Scripture” right here:
Does not the Scripture say: ‘Burden not thyself above thy power’ [Sirach 13:2]…” (Jerome, To Eustochium, Epistle 108, in NPNF2, VI:207)
Are you going to ignore everything else Jerome wrote on the subject of the canon and the deuterocanonicals because he refers to something from Sirach as Scripture when writing to someone who probably considered Sirach to be Scripture? Jerome’s concerns about the deuterocanonicals were shared by many notable RCs throughout history all the way up to Trent. It is misleading to say otherwise because you know better.

Brian
 
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TheTruth:
Infant baptism is in fact touched on in the bible…see your own link for biblical quotes…

as for prayers for the dead, seems like a perfect example of the church creating something for it’s own benefit…something that Jesus never taught nor intended to have happen, and since pergatory NEVER appears anywhere in the bible, this appears to be a false teaching…
The Truth,

are you a liberal protestant or an atheist? Sometimes it’s so hard to tell them apart.

thanks
 
Tom of Assisi:
The Truth,

are you a liberal protestant or an atheist? Sometimes it’s so hard to tell them apart.

thanks
I’m a human being with ability to think for myself…
 
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TheTruth:
I’m a human being with ability to think for myself…
Wow, that really answers the question. Hmmm, sounds rather evasive to me.
 
davidmacd.com/catholic/purgatory.htm#Praying%20for%20Souls

The word “Purgatory” is not in the Bible. This has fed a lot of arguments against it. But let us look at another word that is not in the Bible - “Trinity.” For that matter, the word “Bible” itself does not appear in Scripture.
Some Evangelicals say “everything that is true is in the Bible.” Catholics say that "everything that is in the Bible is true." There is a subtle distinction. Many Evangelicals would say “if its true its in the Bible, if its not true its not in the Bible.” But the early Christians didn’t have a Bible. It wasn’t written for at least a hundred years and the exact books to include were not formally decided upon until the 300’s. So the tradition of the Church is important. Catholics believe there are spiritual truths that are inferred in the Bible but not expressly articulated. The Catholic Church thinks Jesus has given authority to the Church to articulate these things. These are articulated slowly and carefully as the Church marches through time on its “Pilgrimage of Faith.” Both Catholics and Evangelicals agree that no spiritual truth will conflict with the Bible. Amen to that.

Some Evangelicals claim that Deut 18:10-12 rails against the concept of Purgatory and praying for the dead. The Church feels there is an important distinction between Deut 18:10-12 and Purgatory. Catholics pray for the dead -not to them. I would pray for you but I would not pray to you.

Catholics believe there is enough evidence of Purgatory in Scripture to validate its existence. Evangelicals would agree that even if there is one instance of a spiritual principle in the Bible, then it is true because the Bible is the embodiment of Truth.

Paul prayed for Onesiphorous after he died, “may the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the lord on that day” (2nd Timothy 1:16-18).

“After his death, Jesus went to preach to the Spirits in prison” (1 Pet 3:19)

“Nothing unclean can enter heaven” (Rev 21:27)

Catholics believe Jesus speaks of purgatory in Matthew 18:23-35. He says: “The kingdom of heaven may be likened to…” and then He tells a story about a king who forgave a servant’s large debt. That same servant refused to forgive a much smaller amount of a fellow servant. The king then threw the first servant into prison “until he should pay back the whole debt.” Jesus then says, “So will my Heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.” Catholics feel the prison in the Kingdom of Heaven where one might remain until the debt is satisfied is Purgatory.

Catholics believe Paul also spoke of purgatory:

“The work of each will come to light, for the day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss, the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

The church is says:

Pray ***for ***the souls in Purgatory
Ask Angels, Saints and Mary to pray ***for ***us
Pray ***to ***Jesus

Biblical passages that Catholics feel refer to Purgatory

Ps 66:12, Mt 12:32, Phil 2:10-11, Ecc 12:14, Lk 16:19-31, 1 Thess 3:13, Is 4:4 (cf. Eph 4:8-10; 4:7 6:5-7 1 Pet 3:19-20) 2 Tim 1:16-18, Mic 7:8-9, 1 Cor 3:11-15, Heb 12:14, Mal 3:1-4 15:29 12:29, 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, 2 Cor 5:10, Rev 5:3,13, Mt 5:25-6, Lk 12:58-9, 7:1, 21:27
 
This is a response to The Truth. While the word Pergatory is not found in Scripture, the teaching was always in Scripture. Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.
 
This is a response to The Truth. While the word Pergatory is not found in Scripture, the teaching was always in Scripture. Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.
 
go Leafs go:
My Protestant girlfriend wants me to give her faith a fair chance
Well if she is considering marrying you, you need to step up and be a man. You will be the spiritual leader of the household, and you need to stick to Your Faith.

1 Peter 3: 1-7
Colossians 3: 18-25
Ephesians 5: 22-33


That is the way God Intended. Do not waiver from your faith my friend. Your First love is The Lord, not a woman who would have you give up your faith, and if she truely loves God, she will obey the scriptures, just as you do, and do as the Lord tells us in His Word.
 
Thank You tTt and fullOftruth, you told the truth in a convincing way.

I refer to 1Peter 3:19( Jesus preached to the souls in prison) when discussing Purgatory too.
!Peter3: 1-7 is good advice too for husbands. Be a man, take heed.

I love 1John1:8-10. But I wonder how a Protestant confesses. Do they just say, as in the Our Father, “forgive me of me sins” and thats it?

This thread is great for those would-be apologists, Thanks.:clapping:
 
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