Prove me wrong please!

[Spacer]

I haven’t really tried to do anything, it’s all you. Really, I don’t even want to take credit for this one.

And you’re welcome, I hope now you have some grasp of what evolution is. At least, you now know that it isn’t a “spark” in the water. Which is an improvement, however small.

Oh dear, you didn’t grasp my concept at all. It’s alright, I understand you felt threatened because you now know that the theory of God is absurd and why believe in something that you can’t prove?

 

[Spacer]

The structure of an H2O molecule is such that it has two poles, one with a slight positive charge, and the other with a slight negative charge. It is this that causes water to be liquid at room temperature whereas ammonia, a similar molecule structurally, is a gas.

Evolution is a hypothesis based on the principles of natural selection, which can be summarized in the statement, “survival of the fittest.” The “fittest” is often determined by a random, beneficial mutation or a beneficial combination of genetic material recieved from parents.

Again I’ll state I never once said water was a form of evolution I was talking about it producing life and well one thing led to another if you know what I mean.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Oh dear, you didn’t grasp my concept at all. It’s alright, I understand you felt threatened because you now know that the theory of God is absurd and why believe in something that you can’t prove?

:doh2:

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Oh dear, you didn’t grasp my concept at all. It’s alright, I understand you felt threatened because you now know that the theory of God is absurd and why believe in something that you can’t prove?

Hey, what’s important is that someone posted this little gem:

Apparently you don’t know what evolution is, nor do you know the principles on which it works. … Water does have a small spark of electricity in it,

Which got me a good laugh, and the poster some sound education.

 

[Spacer]

Hey, what’s important is that someone posted this little gem:

Which got me a good laugh, and the poster some sound education.

Right, I did say that. Where did I say it was evolution? If I did please quote me.

Edit: Again I say to you. It’s absurd you never really listened to me just got in your own mind set and stuck to it.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

The structure of an H2O molecule is such that it has two poles, one with a slight positive charge, and the other with a slight negative charge. It is this that causes water to be liquid at room temperature whereas ammonia, a similar molecule structurally, is a gas.

Evolution is a hypothesis based on the principles of natural selection, which can be summarized in the statement, “survival of the fittest.” The “fittest” is often determined by a random, beneficial mutation or a beneficial combination of genetic material recieved from parents.

So do I know about water and evolution, or am I some stubborn, ignorant theist?

 

[Miles_Mariae]

So do I know about water and evolution, or am I some stubborn, ignorant theist?

You’re just too stubborn to recognize the “spark of electricity in water” which allows water to “produce life”. This is the Theory of Evolution. How can you be so adamantly against such a sound theory?!

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

You’re just too stubborn to recognize the “spark of electricity in water” which allows water to “produce life”. This is the Theory of Evolution. How can you be so adamantly against such a sound theory?!

Life cannot exist in any form we know of without water, however, water alone (even with independant atoms of the elements hydrogen and oxygen) cannot produce life

 

[ryanoneil]

I’ve been a practicing catholic for 20 years until recently I’ve decided faith in God is a laughing stock.

*Finally the correct answer, God is not helping anyone.

I pray that God will give you the answers you are looking for.

I know I can’t prove you wrong, but please consider:

The theory that we can be decieved by the “the father of lies”

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Hastrman]

What people consider evil or suffering is an illusion or unimportant.
*So killing an unborn child is an illusion?

God’s divine plan is good. What we see as evil is not really evil; rather, it is part of a divine design that is actually good. Our
limitations prevent us from seeing the big picture.
*His divine plan was to have millions killed in war for the big picture of people killing off random people in a “war zone”

You think you and your race are the only intelligences in existence. What about the Devil’s right to his free will?

Evil is the consequence of God giving people free will, or God may intend evil and suffering as a test for humanity. Without the possibility to choose to do good or evil acts humans would lack moral content.
*Again with the evil nonsense. Why would he want us to hurt another or be hurt?

He doesn’t, but it would be wrong for him to make us slaves.

Evil is the consequence, not cause, of people not observing God’s revealed will. Universal reciprocated love would solve most of the problems that lead to the evils discussed here.
*Score one for Free Will apparently, I think he made a mistake.

You say that because you do not realize that being forced to be happy is just as bad as being forced to be miserable–hence the Buddhist view that good Karma is just as bad as bad Karma.

God’s ultimate purpose is to glorify himself (which, by definition, he alone is infinitely entitled to, without vanity). He allows evil to exist so that humanity will appreciate goodness all the more, in the same way that the blind man healed by Jesus appreciated his sight more so than those around him who had never experienced blindness.
*I can guarantee you that if there was no evil everyone would be happy and not expect anything else. Hence pure euphoria all the time.

You can guarantee what would happen in an unfallen universe you never experienced? You speak foolishness. And again, you are asking to be a slave.

God created perfect angels and humans with free will. Some of them began to sin and lost their perfection, which resulted in evil doing and death. For a while God will allow this to continue, so that it can be shown that his creations can not be happy while independent from God. In due time God will restore the people who choose to depend on God to perfection and so bring an end to sin and with it an end to evil.
*I think he messed up with creating evil, the lack of god, why would he want people to not love him if he is all powerful? Does he want people to fight and kill?

He does not want them to love him unless they so choose.

God is a righteous judge; people get what they deserve. If someone suffers, that is because they committed a sin that merits such punishment. (This is also known as the just world hypothesis.)
*I’ll go with the unborn babies again or maybe the child who will never see because his mom was on drugs. Man, that baby was a sinner in the womb.( I didn’t know that was possible?)

It could be possible, but it is not and never has been the Catholic position. Evil occurs because the cosmos no longer works properly, because the most powerful being in it is a fallen angel.

Evil is one way that God tests humanity, to see if we are worthy of His grace.
*Why should we be tested? Who is to say Heaven and Hell exist? Has anyone seen Heaven/Hell? No proof.

Nobody has or can see quanta, which are unpicturable-in-principle, yet I doubt you deny their existence. And God is not testing us.

The world is corrupt and of itself shouldn’t have been created, but the work of Christ (or some savior figure) redeems the world and thus God’s creation of it.
*Doesn’t everyone start out sinless? Isn’t that what he died for? Yet why do we have to go to church and learn what is “wrong?”
If we never knew what was wrong we wouldn’t be sinning, am I right?

It is impossible to be human and not know right from wrong; and even if you didn’t you would still be sinning–you’d just be getting “idiot credit” and not held responsible. Would you rather be treated like an idiot child or a responsible adult?

Absolute evil is not actually real. Rather, it is only the condition of lack of goodness.
*Waste of time creating something to do wrong.

“Time?” You don’t know the meaning of the word eternity, now do you? An infinite being with no dimensions has no need of this thing you, a monkey that only knows four of ten dimensions, call “time”–also he has no parts so cannot change; again no “time”. And if anything is conceivable, so is its lack.

Evil is relative to good; neither good nor evil could exist without both existing simultaneously.
*I’m pretty sure an omnipotent being could make it work out without evil.

The fact that a thing can be thought of means that its lack is logically necessary–IS requires IS NOT. The omnipotent cannot make real the actually contradictory, because contradictory statements are meaningless.

Atheists resolve the apparent contradiction by rejecting the hypothesized existence of God. Some atheists think that the problem of evil can be used to prove that no gods exist by the method of reductio ad absurdum (proof by contradiction). This method does not prove the non-existence of all gods, rather it is an argument that if such a god exists then he is not both omnipotent and benevolent.
*Finally the correct answer, God is not helping anyone.

An infinite (therefore omni-etc.) God is, unfortunately, required by any philosophy with even a moderate claim to legitimacy, which you would know if you knew any philosophy. Since you don’t even know what the word “God” means, you think you are qualified to deny its existence?

 

[fellowChristian]

Why should God do what you tell Him to do?

Especially if you treat God like a slot machine,put in a few prayers and hope you hit the big one.

What I got out of what you wrote is…It is all God’s fault. Not yours.

Yes,true God does allow bad things to happen to good people. He can do that. He created us.

But you are not taking in the fact that people do things to people.

Kinda like “guns don’t shoot people, people shoot people”

You’re blaming the “gun” and not the people.

God is not “playing chess with us”. We made the choices that lead us to where we are in life.

You totally don’t get it do you?

Think of a video game the “creator” decided how the game was to be played. He set the rules. He designed the characters. He planned the layout and picked the music. But He does not “control” how we “play” the game. He gives us the options but we are the ones who make the choices.

One last thing…

You can’t prove that love exists either.

If someone has never experienced love before they could say “It doesn’t exist.”

Just because someone thinks that they have never experienced God before they say
He doesn’t exist.

 

[JPatton]

Hey buddy there is hope! I was there once my self.

• Started smoking weed at 14 and smoked heavily for 11yrs
• Began having sex with lots of girls at 14
• Beaten up very badly by a group, unconscience, hospitilized 3 days at 16
• Went to jail for a shooting * at 17
• Involved in numerous violent fights, people died, buddy in jail 7yrs
• Went to jail for a violent fight at 20
• Homeless and lived in car 3 months at 20
• Sold drugs to make a living at 20-21
• Jumped by a group of people and car stolen at 21
• Got a girl pregnent at 22, had an abortion
• Beaten up very badly by a group with baseball bats at 23
• Attempted suicide at 23
• Beaten up very badly by a group, broken jaw at 24
• Busted with a friend during his drug deal at 24
• Addicted to women, sex with many woman over the yrs
• Fell in love at 29, planned on marriage, she got pregnent and had an abortion
  
  My whole life was filled with drama,heartache and pain. I was lost. As much as I screwed up I kept going. There are alot of other things I’ve done I can’t list here and something or someone has gotten me through them and saved me from many sticky situations. At 26 I joined the Air Force and began to change my outlook on life. I came home at 28 into a reserve unit where things slowly began looking up. I met a woman and fell in love and life was great. At 29 she got pregnent and her true feelings came out. She refused to have the child and I began to be in a heavy state of depression. The only thing that kept me going was that I wanted this child. The abortion I had early in life still had its effects on me and I vowed never to do it again. I fought as hard as I could, tried every thing but I couldn’t win this fight. I prayed and prayed but 2 days after Christmas she aborted. I left her and was lost again. In all my anger,pain and sadness I cried out “God why me?” I picked up a little bible that a pastor gave me while on active duty and I said “God help me”. I opened it up without knowing what I was turning to and just picked out a paragraph - it was 1 Corinthians 13:1-13. Once I read that for the first time I had peace, I knew she didn’t love me truley. I then flipped through the pages looking for more and unknowingly came to Romans 5:1-5.
  Romans 5:3-5
  “we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.”

This showed me how all the suffering I went through/was going through was for a reason. It literally brought me to my knees.

I ended up giving my life to Christ, found an evangelical church, was baptised and started my walk with Jesus. Eventually landed a decent career, reinlisted in the Air Force and bought a house. I’m now married to an awesome woman who’s dedicated to God with plans for children soon. Things are still not easy but God has given me peace and hope. My walk with Jesus continues on toward the Catholic Church and now I’m faced with new struggles [converting with an evangelical wife] but God has pulled me out of so many things He will take care of this one, all for His will and His Glory.

There is so much more to say about my conversion and testimony but from my example you can see there is hope. Never give up. Life isn’t easy but God can get us through it, trust me. I will pray for you my brother. Christ be with you!

Jamie*

 

[VociMike]

Spacer, here’s a wonderful mental exercise. Describe how you’d make the world differently if you were God. Describe how you’d fix all the problems you believe exist in God’s handling of the world. You may be shocked at the results of this exercise.

 

[erbo]

Spacer,

First of all, I am deeply sorry for everything you are going through. I have gone through similar trials in my life as well. I see how you are questioning the validity of God, and you seem to be highly interested in science.

I too have studied (a small bit of) string theory, M-theory, read Stephen Hawkings, etc. You think that science gives you real, concrete answers while religion gives you dated myths. You are looking for something of real substance in religion. I recently graduated college as an engineer, and I have a pretty good breadth of understanding of science, and I am proposing that you can have both.

The most important thing I learned is the “both/and” philosophy. You are posing questions as if it is EITHER religion OR science. Consider this: you are seeking the truth…whatever it is. You want enough concrete proof to solidify your understanding of truth, and finding very satisfying explanations in the latest cosmological theories. Truth does not contradict truth–The Catholic Church makes some very bold statements about being the one true Church established by God Himself. There are over 2,000 years of history and testimony to this. If the Catholic Church teaches the truth, and science pursues and also teaches truth, then by definition truth cannot contradict truth. When looking at evidence, Science and Catholicism harmonize very nicely. Just because Big Bangs happen all the time because of sheets in higher dimensions interacting with each other doesn’t mean there is no God…

When a dispute comes up, seek to reconcile it with official Church teachings. You will be happy to learn that all through time, it was Catholic scientists who made many key contributions to science. The Big Bang theory was first proposed by a Catholic priest! Catholocism is one of the few religions that rejoices in (ethical) science, not fears it. There are theistic models of evolution.

I guess my point from all this rambling is this:

1. Hang in there!!! We will all pray for you
2. Don’t seek religion or science, seek TRUTH, which transcends both realms, Philosophy is a tool you can use to unify them.
3. Understand that believing and devoting your life to religion doesn’t force a person to become an ignorant bigot, as a lot of popular media suggests.

Good luck, and God bless!!

-erbo

 

[BlestOne]

Spacer, here’s a wonderful mental exercise. Describe how you’d make the world differently if you were God. Describe how you’d fix all the problems you believe exist in God’s handling of the world. You may be shocked at the results of this exercise.

VociMike… I love this idea!.. Not as easy as it sounds is it?

 

[VociMike]

VociMike… I love this idea!.. Not as easy as it sounds is it?

Not just that, but it turns out that the “solutions” we’re likely to propose just make the problem worse, and they make us worse. So I hope the OP will give it a try and see for himself.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’ve been a practicing catholic for 20 years until recently I’ve decided faith in God is a laughing stock. Before I get started let me throw out a couple of your arguments towards me before hand: (My responses are the *'s)

I haven’t seen anyone comment on this, but most of your articulations of “our” arguments are not at all things that any Catholic (or even any person) would ever say. If you have a question, then you can ask and let other people formulate their arguments for themselves. It comes across as very condescending when you make such weak and silly arguments and attribute them to other people before you have even given them the chance to speak for themselves. In logic, I believe that’s called the strawman fallacy.

It seems that your many questions really boil down to the problem of evil and suffering as you seem to be experiencing it firsthand. I think the testimony of BlestOne and JPatton are excellent responses. Any sort of detached or purely philosophical/theological comments that I would be able to make probably won’t help you at this point in time.

 

[Joe_5859]

Spacer, here’s a wonderful mental exercise. Describe how you’d make the world differently if you were God. Describe how you’d fix all the problems you believe exist in God’s handling of the world. You may be shocked at the results of this exercise.

Good idea! Didn’t Spacer see “Bruce Almighty”?

 

[BlestOne]

Good idea! Didn’t Spacer see “Bruce Almighty”?

hahahaha… that’s exactly what I thought too…

 

[ateista]

Ok, Spacer, here is the advice. You can take it or leave it.

1. Look into a mirror and ask yourself a few questions: “Am I worthy of my attention?”. “Do I care about myself?”. “Is there anything I want to do with my own life?”
2. If the answers are “yes”, then you can start to fix your problems. No one else can do it for you, but you do not have to do it alone. (I do not want to tell you what to do if your answers are “no”… I hope it does not happen).

Face it, at 21 you are still a kid. (No offense intended, I am 61 years old.) You do have parents. Trust them. Go to them and ask for help. I would suggest you tell them that you would want to get education, you want to become someone they can be proud of.

Do not ask for handouts. If you have a school you wish to attend, which is a great plan, ask your parents if they are willing to help you with a loan! I repeat, with a loan! Do not accept just money, even if they would be willing to give you.

If you get a loan from them you can set a goal: to repay it as fast as you can. To get a loan is the sign of maturity, it is a sign that your parents will trust you. It will help to build your self-esteem. Contrary to what many people say: a just pride in your accomplishments is healthy and good for your ego. (If someone tries to tell you that pride is a deadly sin, just walk away from them.)

You can fix your money-spending problem, too. Every time you want to spend money on non-essentials, remember, the money in your hand is not yours. It is your parents’ money, and they trusted you to husband it responsively.

Make a list of your necessary expenditures. Prioritize them and make sure that you have enough money to cover the most important ones. Make sure that repaying the loan is number one on the list. If you have leftover after covering all the essintials, give yourself a small treat. If you do not have enough money, you will have to forego the items on the bottom of the list.

Forget the “gadgets”, cell phones, stereos, TV’s, MP3 players. No “text messaging”. They are not necessary. Forget about designer clothes. Go and buy decent, clean garments from second-hand stores. There is nothing wrong with them. You will be surprised how little is enough.

Never go out to eat in a restaurant. Never buy a Coke from a vending machine. Make your own sandwiches and bring them to work, or school. If your peers would snicker, tell them that you are on a heath diet. I am not kidding: by following these simple ideas you can easily save 300 dollars a month.

I can assure you that 400 dollars a month will cover all the necessities. Maybe even less. Yes, it will be frugal, it will be tough, but it can be done. Go the library and get a few of Suze Orman’s books on finances.

Not an easy task to do. Look into the mirror and face what you see. Anyhow, this is the advice. You can do with it what you want.

Good luck, buddy!