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fisherman_carl
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jcrichton
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…but the answer is, to my understanding, quite simple: Yahweh God does not punish us by sending us to Hell (Ezekiel 18); rather, we chose to rebel against God and in so doing are chosing Hell since no wickedness/sin can coexist with God… here’s one to ponder… why is it that those who proclaim a good and loving God do not serve Him in Humble Obedience? …why is it that they are forever seeking to avoid responsibility for their rebellious acts? …even non-Believers are quick to cite Jesus’ acceptance of sinners while simultaneously refusing to observe that Jesus Commanded them to “…go and sin no more.”
God does not want the sinner to die… but He will not force Salvation down our throats!
I concur… the path of no restrictions!
…didn’t Jesus speak on this before (St. Matthew 7:13-14)? :banghead:
Maran atha!
Angel
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RobbyS
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My priest said today something that stays with me. The more we try to be God, the more we are like the devil. We are all looking for the ultimate good and doing what can to achieve this, but every action as an equal and opposite reaction. We build proud towers and they eventually fall of their own weight.
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jcrichton
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…but is the Church not Teaching what Christ Taught: “be perfect for *I AM *Perfect.”
I’ve never heard that the Church Teaches that we must come to God in perfection… rather, she Teaches that in God we are perfected. The Sacrament of Reconciliation/Repentence is that call to Return to God so that He may Purify us; others may teach that all that’s needed is to claim Jesus as the it for all sins but Scriptures do not Teach such theology (1 St. John 1:5 through 2:6)
I am very suspicious of these “sciences” that prescribe chemical alterations for most things… but they do sometimes hit their mark… perfection, outside of God, is unattainable!
…but Jesus went further than all psychotherapists… He said: “abide in Me so that I may Abide in you…” and “…without Me you are nothing.” (St. John 15:1-10)
It it that perfection that the Church Teaches and calls us to attain; not the temporal perfection with temporal values and accomplishments… though there’s the rub–we would do almost anything and become almost anything to perfect a skill/ability as long as there’s wealth, fame or power to be had… but when the Church calls us to change our sinful and wicked ways… we become quite litigious: “Jesus already paid for it all; I can do as I please cause God is good and God is love…”
…actuallly… the prayer goes the other way: “forgive us as we forgive others;” Jesus may have placed this clause (as that with the Commandment to “honor” our father and mother) in order to entise us to be more generous and merciful… and while it is true that God searches us out and accepts us as we are… it is also true that we are Called to change… to be imitators of Christ! …remember the weading banquet… there was that one guy (perhaps more which would eventurally also be found out) who accepted the “Come one, come all,” invitation… however, he decided to go on his own terms: “hey, I got the invite, none can take it from me!” He was dead wrong!
I never understood the Church Teachings as such… I’ve always understood the warning about Hell and sin: you persists in sin, you die. Scriptures can’t be any clearer: we are called to perfection… to change our sinful mind and nature into Christ’s nature: be perfect!
…these passages are wonderful… they demonstrate the realtionship we have to have both with God and our fellow man (mankind); but we must understand that this Love that we are called to is Jesus and to Love Jesus we must Obey, Humbly:
"If you Love Me, Keep my Commandments. (St. John 14:15)
Maran atha!
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jcrichton
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aquinasg
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The New Testament often speaks of the eternal fire of hell
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fisherman_carl
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Of course it’s God’s love that brings us to repentance. When the prodigal son realized he was better off with his Father he went home. He never went home because he thought his Father would beat him if he didn’t. He realized how poorly he was treated working with pigs and he remembered how well his Father treated even the hired hands.
“Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?” (Rom 2:4)
It was Jesus’ kindness to sinners that made them want to repent. Mary Madelene was not cowering in fear while washing Jesus’ feet. She was crying tears of joy for she received the most precious of gifts, the cleansing of her soul.
I agree that we have to forgive others to receive mercy ourselves. However, when, we come to God sorry for our sins, he forgives us. He forgives us every time we repent and confess our sins (1 Jn 1:9). The reason we don’t receive forgiveness if we don’t forgive our brother is not because God is not willing to forgive us. Rather, it’s because when we refuse to forgive others our hearts remain closed to receiving forgiveness from God.
In the parable of the merciless servant, the servant was forgiven first and then he failed to forgive his brother. It was because he was forgiven such a large debt that should have motivated him to forgive others debts against him. However, his heart was still hard. Yet, God is always willing to forgive. His mercy is boundless.
"2840 Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see.136 In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace. "
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BrunoMaria
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OK - as “Fisherman Karl” wrote:
I asked what OSAS means. Thanks for telling me that OSAS means: “Once Saved Always Saved”. That’s of course a daft idea. Hitler as well as Stalin and a lot of other evildoers as even single killers or child abusers, or people who ruin others life, where believing Christians before they turned to be devils. OSAS so is inexistent to any believer. He who thinks OSAS is valid, is totally wrong, as the Bible tells in so many verses. We all have to struggle to remain in God. But believers who do, really have no reason to fear hell.
you wrote:
The crux is - to STAY in Christ; TO ABIDE, as Jesus pointed out in John 15,4: Abide in me, then I will abide in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me!
If we do abide in Christ, our name will never be deleted off the Book of Life. So, how should a Christian who abides in God, ever be afraid of hell?!
Purgatory here too was mentioned. But that is a very much different thing from hell - has nothing to do with it. if I land in Purgatory, I know I once will be with God forever. Of course “perfection, outside of God, is unattainable”. That’s why we got to ABIDE in Christ - then we can even laugh about hell.
When I was a little kid, Dad told me: “If you have God with you - which is the case if you dearly love your Father in Heaven which is God; then you might walk right across hell and even spit on Satan’s head and tease him with a stick and he can’t do a thing to you, for he then is as weak as a little puppy and he’s even afraid of you then! You do have God with you, if you keep praying, for that’s direct ontact to God. Don’t ever be afraid of Hell! - Rather make Satan afraid of you”. How right Dad was! He died in 1968, and I as a little kid, called Satan names and took fun of him.
Now, I do NOT fear Hell! Not in the least! Even as Satan is still the Prince of the world and tempts all of us continuously - as he even tempted Jesus. Let’s indeed fear his temptations. Though I fear what hell can do on earth in those people who (mostly even unknowingly) abide in Satan instead of in God. We see what that means in all wars and all misery on the world. Jesus though said: Misery must come over the world, but woe to him who caused it. (For instance in Luke 17,1)
Yours, Bruno
Certainly it’s surely frightening if we where allowed a glance into hell. But to a believer there’s no reason to be afraid of landing there! So - why be afraid of hell.…
I asked what OSAS means. Thanks for telling me that OSAS means: “Once Saved Always Saved”. That’s of course a daft idea. Hitler as well as Stalin and a lot of other evildoers as even single killers or child abusers, or people who ruin others life, where believing Christians before they turned to be devils. OSAS so is inexistent to any believer. He who thinks OSAS is valid, is totally wrong, as the Bible tells in so many verses. We all have to struggle to remain in God. But believers who do, really have no reason to fear hell.
you wrote:
Let me ask back: Don’t you believe in Jesus Christ’s word in Joh 11.25: “…he who believes in Me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.…”
The crux is - to STAY in Christ; TO ABIDE, as Jesus pointed out in John 15,4: Abide in me, then I will abide in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me!
If we do abide in Christ, our name will never be deleted off the Book of Life. So, how should a Christian who abides in God, ever be afraid of hell?!
Purgatory here too was mentioned. But that is a very much different thing from hell - has nothing to do with it. if I land in Purgatory, I know I once will be with God forever. Of course “perfection, outside of God, is unattainable”. That’s why we got to ABIDE in Christ - then we can even laugh about hell.
When I was a little kid, Dad told me: “If you have God with you - which is the case if you dearly love your Father in Heaven which is God; then you might walk right across hell and even spit on Satan’s head and tease him with a stick and he can’t do a thing to you, for he then is as weak as a little puppy and he’s even afraid of you then! You do have God with you, if you keep praying, for that’s direct ontact to God. Don’t ever be afraid of Hell! - Rather make Satan afraid of you”. How right Dad was! He died in 1968, and I as a little kid, called Satan names and took fun of him.
Now, I do NOT fear Hell! Not in the least! Even as Satan is still the Prince of the world and tempts all of us continuously - as he even tempted Jesus. Let’s indeed fear his temptations. Though I fear what hell can do on earth in those people who (mostly even unknowingly) abide in Satan instead of in God. We see what that means in all wars and all misery on the world. Jesus though said: Misery must come over the world, but woe to him who caused it. (For instance in Luke 17,1)
Yours, Bruno
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StrawberryJam
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Bruno, how are you?
Here’s the thing. Hell is mentioned in the Bible. What are you going to do about that little problem?>
Here’s the thing. Hell is mentioned in the Bible. What are you going to do about that little problem?>
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fisherman_carl
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BrunoMaria
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Dear StrawberryJam,
I do know that my English is humble and sometimes even quit ambiguous as I tend to use the wrong words.
But I NEVER in my life doubted hell’s existence for on second. Hell is just as real as all Jesus taught us, and this I even wrote in CAF several times.
So, what on earth makes you think I deny hell???
I by the way hate strawberry-jam - but I love you
Yours, Bruno
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jcrichton
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…it is why Jesus tells His Disciples that their justice needs to surpass that of the Pharisees and Saduccees… and the reason why the fabulous news about the Savior Coming into the world to Save us is tempered with the disclosure that not all will be Saved (St. John 3:16-21).
Maran atha!
Angel
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