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fred_conty
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Whatever works, use it.
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BrunoMaria
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I wonder why anybody would have fear of hell.
Why fear the hell, when we are in God - in God’s word - in God’s will…
One should rather fear God, who’s able to condemn one into hell. See Lukas 12,4: do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear Him … who has power to cast into hell!
dem Töten Macht hat, in die Hölle zu werfen; ja, sage ich euch, diesen fürchtet.
I read here the greeting “Manan atha”. Actually in the bible it’s spelled Maranatha= Our Lord come. in 1Cor 16,22
I fact that’s a prayer of the first Christians wating for the second coming of the Lord. See Revelation 22,20: He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
Yours
Bruno
Why fear the hell, when we are in God - in God’s word - in God’s will…
One should rather fear God, who’s able to condemn one into hell. See Lukas 12,4: do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear Him … who has power to cast into hell!
dem Töten Macht hat, in die Hölle zu werfen; ja, sage ich euch, diesen fürchtet.
I read here the greeting “Manan atha”. Actually in the bible it’s spelled Maranatha= Our Lord come. in 1Cor 16,22
I fact that’s a prayer of the first Christians wating for the second coming of the Lord. See Revelation 22,20: He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
Yours
Bruno
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jcrichton
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Bruno, I cuncur!
…I think that the problem lies in what is enphasized as we deepen in the Faith; though there’s only One that we should Fear the beauty is that He is in our favor; He went to bat for us while we were still sinners… rescuing us by the Blood of Christ and Opening the Door for our Salvation… but people do learn (develop) differently… to some the reality of Salvation is not real unless Hell enters the picture… to others, as the pendulum swings, the problem lies in over-estimation of their Salvation (they hold it as a deed/contract that is owed to them) where God’s hands are basically tied as there’s no wrong they can do to forfit Salvation… still others look for loopwholes… regardless of the case if we do not rely on Christ, Hell or no Hell, we are doommed (St. John 15;1-10)
Maran atha!
Angel
PS: The phrase is Arameic and can be both Maran atha (the Lord is Coming) or Marana tha (Come Lord)–from the Jerusalem Bible – Spanish Ed. 1975
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StrawberryJam
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If you are looking for bible verses that indicate hell, there are many. If you are looking for Early Fathers on the subject there is plenty there also.
I’ve read theologians that speak of hell as a seperation from God and perhaps not an exact literal place. More common is the good old standard version.
I really don’t know if you are debating with non believers or not, but if you are you may run into a few problems with using the bible to prove what is basically in the bible. It’s called circular reasoning.
I think I noticed you mentioned that science claims the universe is empty. I really don’t see how that could be when there are billions and billions of… fade to Carl Sagan now.
You may have meant that we have not yet observed life outside of this pale blue dot we call home yet. If that is what you meant, whatever would that have to do with a heaven or hell?
Interesting questions.
I’ve read theologians that speak of hell as a seperation from God and perhaps not an exact literal place. More common is the good old standard version.
I really don’t know if you are debating with non believers or not, but if you are you may run into a few problems with using the bible to prove what is basically in the bible. It’s called circular reasoning.
I think I noticed you mentioned that science claims the universe is empty. I really don’t see how that could be when there are billions and billions of… fade to Carl Sagan now.
You may have meant that we have not yet observed life outside of this pale blue dot we call home yet. If that is what you meant, whatever would that have to do with a heaven or hell?
Interesting questions.
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BrunoMaria
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Dear Angel and Good Morning to All,
but why do you think so? “We are doomed” ???
In John 15 the exact opposite is declaired to those who persist in Christ.
Troughout the Bible, Old as New Testament, we get the GOOD NEWS, that if we persist in God, we shall live in eternity in God’s Kingdom. See John 14,1-2 for just one out of many, where Jesus said:
“Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.”
Yours
Bruno
holzschnitzereien at krippenfiguren.com
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Earnest_Bunbury
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“For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.” Rom 1:20.
Proof from today’s mechanistic, materialistic presuppositions relate to quantifiable standards intended to define then control nature. These notions of what comprises wisdom very often lead away from the fullness of truth and thus God, easily seen in practice today.
A philosophical notion of truth that leads away from God is contrary to the above verse but a natural theology does not need to start with God as a presupposition. St. Thomas Aquinas has this proof but needs to be read in the fullness of his philosophy, not from today’s deficient notion of the nature of truth. It is also today’s deficient philosophy that fails to discern correctly the Church’s teaching, the transcendence of God, and rendering timeless truths subservient and subordinate to man. The myriad of books on Aquinas, natural theology, and Aristotelian philosophy is the place for answers that are too complex for an online forum.
Proof from today’s mechanistic, materialistic presuppositions relate to quantifiable standards intended to define then control nature. These notions of what comprises wisdom very often lead away from the fullness of truth and thus God, easily seen in practice today.
A philosophical notion of truth that leads away from God is contrary to the above verse but a natural theology does not need to start with God as a presupposition. St. Thomas Aquinas has this proof but needs to be read in the fullness of his philosophy, not from today’s deficient notion of the nature of truth. It is also today’s deficient philosophy that fails to discern correctly the Church’s teaching, the transcendence of God, and rendering timeless truths subservient and subordinate to man. The myriad of books on Aquinas, natural theology, and Aristotelian philosophy is the place for answers that are too complex for an online forum.
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BrunoMaria
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And it’s not even necessary to know all these top books of Catholic Philosophy.
As Pope Benedit XVI. said:
BELIEF IS EASY
Yours
Bruno
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Earnest_Bunbury
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Quite often, though, we have to discuss this belief with non-believers in ways that are not easy. That is where the nature of truth, of philosophy, comes in.
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jcrichton
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I’m not sure if you are replying to the various comments or one specifically… Heaven and Hell are theological realities which cannot be argued but from Sacred Scriptures; non-Believers can either accept or reject any argument (which works the same for Believers)… Yahweh God Promised Abraham that he would be the father to many nations and that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the Universe so there cannot be any reasoning from Believers that we exist in an empty galaxy/Universe–my personal comments about science is that it uses unquantifiable values to determine things and present them as factual (ie: light travel; our sun having onle “x” millions of years left, etc.)… as for life outside planet Earth–complete speculation… if we were to accept the theory that two massess collided, the earth took shape and after eons and eons of years and myriads of just right conditions a single-celled creature imerged and the plannet as we know it (after still more eons and eons of years and yet more myriads of happenstance…)–why would the same singularity just happen to reoccur?
…in an infinite chaos for order to occur just once is inconceivable… for it to reoccur several times over… it’s astronomically inconceivable!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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Hi, Bruno… I did not say we are doomed–I said if we ***do not ***rely (abide) on Christ we are doomed.
Maran atha!
Angel
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StrawberryJam
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I was replying to Bruno’s post number 7
Secular “science” says. “The universe is empty - so there is no heaven - not to speak even of hell”. - All who say so, call God and name Jesus a liar.
As for your personal comments about science go, I see no reason to drag them into this thread but would love to discuss them with you at some point in a more appropriate place.
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jcrichton
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…I offer the structure of the snowflake… it is a unique multi-geographical design that serves little purpose and if it does not melt it clumps up and ends up as an ice block or slugge… but scientist have discovered that if sliced, they can get a perfect mirror image of its intricate design… blind and dumb nature at work or a Genuine Creator?
Maran atha!
Angel
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StrawberryJam
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And this has what to do with heaven and hell?
If you want to discuss the “complexity” defense for your deity, we can but as I mentioned it really should not be here as it does not seem to be the appropriate place.
This guy is talking about heaven and hell for goodness sake.
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jcrichton
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…got you; I took his expression to mean that science does not recognize Yahweh God as the Creator so there’s just vastness of space out there…
…tangents do occurr… but it is better to stick to one topic at a time…
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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…yeah, but you have to take into consideration all of the posts:
…though it seems as a tangent, my response is in direct relationship to the quoted Scriptural passage!
Maran atha!
Angel
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fisherman_carl
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I would think that would be fairly obvious. People can be afraid of heights, bears, or even other people. I’m sure you could understand that. But, you have trouble understanding why someone could be afraid of a place of eternal suffering and damnation?
Because in Catholicism there is still the possibility that one could fall away from God’s will, from his love.
You are just translating your fear from one thing to another. I never said a little fear is bad. Fear can for instance motivate us to get out of the way of an oncoming car. However, to live in deliberating fear is another thing altogether. Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean others don’t struggle with it.
I know all the rationalizations for the existence of hell. However, I also know the counter arguments. For instance, how could a good and loving God send people to a place of eternal punishment? Jesus commands us to forgive others and to love our enemies if we want to receive mercy ourselves. Why then does God condemn others for eternity? Do the injustices that we have committed really deserve being punished in hell fire for all of eternity? These are the difficult questions.
I think OSAS is so popular because it is a comfort for people who are afraid of going to hell. Because it teaches you are going to heaven once you accept Jesus no matter what. That is why it is so popular, even if untrue.
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fisherman_carl
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My use of Mother Theresa was just a way of saying that the average Catholic is far from perfect.
Imagine the feeling that you have to be perfect in order to be accepted. Catholicism teaches that in order to get into heaven we have to be perfect. So if we don’t get that way in this life we spend time in purgatory until we are made that way.
However, most people are not perfect. Do you think a standard of perfection is too high for anything? Most psychologists will tell you it is a false expectation to expect oneself to be perfect. And, that to do so will inevitably bring depression and/or anxiety. Who expects to always be perfect when writing an exam, for instance? If you can find someone like that then I will show you someone with much anxiety.
The beautiful thing about God is that he knows we are not perfect, yet he loves us anyways. He goes after the one lost sheep and leaves the 99 behind because he loves the lost sheep. That is God is merciful. He forgives us of our sins. That is why he wants us to forgive others in return. We can forgive others if he has forgiven us. Scripture teaches that it is love, not fear, that motivates people to repentance.
It is imperfect motivation to obey God out of fear. Rather to obey God out of love for him is true motivation. And, we can only love God if he first loved us. When we find out that God loves us, that is what motivates us to seek him. When we find out that God is truly merciful if we turn to him then our hearts are moved. That is when love for God replaces fear.
" Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another." (1 Jn 4:7-11)
" God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us." (1 Jn 4:16b-19, emphasis added)
" This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world." (1 Jn 5:2-4a)
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fisherman_carl
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For me the thing that answers that question with the most sense is the thought that spirits can not repent. So in the state we die in is how we stay for eternity. So its not that God wants to punish us for all eternity. But rather it is a metaphysical reality that we can not repent after death. So God has prepared a place for the demons (rebellious spirits that can not repent) and for human spirits who have chosen in this life to rebel against God and thus enter into a state of perpetual rebellion after death.
The suffering in hell then comes from the lack of God’s presence and love. Still, it is a horrible thought that anyone should be in such a state. It is possible that God could destroy the spirits in hell so that they do not have to suffer eternally.
"Do I find pleasure in the death of the wicked—oracle of the Lord GOD? Do I not rejoice when they turn from their evil way and live?..For I find no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies—oracle of the Lord GOD. Turn back and live! "
Ez 18:23,32
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Ben_F
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What about the Lazarus and rich man parable? God bless:thumbsup:Hi Pious Templar…good point! Actually its a point very central to our faith too
I don’t disagree with you at all…what I was commenting upon was the stereotypical views the average catholic has with respect to the fire and brimestone and a torturous God who will allow the survival of Satan and the eternal damnation and torture of souls that he created…
The theological facts and scriptural studies just don’t support that notion of hell…it is quite the invention of Dante’s Comedy (the description of hell - not the concept or reality of hell) that Jesus talks about…my understanding is that hell may be an everlasting separation from God as if we never existed…whcih is a far cry from being tortured.
It is equally important to me that my faith is not based on heaven or hell as that should not be my motivation to love my Creator and my Lord…with all my heart soul and mind…hell is a reality created for bad angels and was never meant for humanity…and that’s another part I need to do more exploration on…
Look forward to your thoughts on this Pious Templar…cheerz.
Trickster (Aboriginal Word For Transformation)
Bruce Ferguson
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BrunoMaria
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I wonder how a person living in God (in God’s word) ever could be afraid of hell. Jesus gave us a very clear statement and guideline wo to go to heaven in God’s kingdom, and how to go to hell and damnation.
Jesus gave us a very clear map and guidline what to do in Mk 16,16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
It’s so simple. So how on earth, could any believer ever be afraid of hell, when his name is written in the book of life?! (Ps 69,29 - Revelation 3,5 - and others)
These questions are all refuted in the Gospel by Jesus himself and reinfored by St. Paul. So, where are the difficult questions?
I don’t know what OSAS means. But no believer ever must be afraid of hell. It however would be no blief at all, if one just “believes” beause he’s afraid of hell. In that case he believes “technically” - “just in case there is a God” which is a terrible disbelief and just as bad as prayers that sound like: “Dear God - if you exist, then…”.
“…you are going to heaven once you accept Jesus no matter what”
is of course silly rubbish. Just to “accept Jesus” is nil. Satan accepts Jesus too.
It’s not just acceptance; but it’s beliefe plus love plus deeds that makes a Christian. If one of the three is missing, one might just as well forget about believe altogether. 1Kor 13.1-13.
Yours
Bruno
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