Prove to me Trinity is real.

[exoflare]

sandusky:

You suppose incorrectly.

Then what basis do you have for saying Jesus spoke of “the Bible”? The Bible includes the New Testament.

2 Tim 3:15.

…where he says scripture is useful for such things. Since when do “useful” and “sufficient” mean the same thing?

He wasn’t; he was speaking of the Jewish scriptures, what we call the Old Testament.

That’s not what you said here…

Paul defined it (“it” here being the Bible, as this was a direct reply to my question about how the ECF’s defined the Bible) as sufficient to make one wise unto salvation..

 

[sandusky]

exoflare:

…where he says scripture is useful for such things. Since when do “useful” and “sufficient” mean the same thing?

When hitting a nail with a hammer, is not the hammer both useful, and sufficient?

When digging a hole, is not the shovel both useful, and sufficient?

When writing a letter, is not the pen both useful, and sufficient?

When needing salvation, are not the sacred writings both useful, and sufficient?

exoflare:

That’s not what you said here…

But it is what I said here:

He wasn’t; he was speaking of the Jewish scriptures, what we call the Old Testament.

Sandusky

 

[exoflare]

sandusky:

When needing salvation, are not the sacred writings both useful, and sufficient?

No, they aren’t. You still haven’t given us any reason to believe they are. Just dancing around the subject and indirectly claiming that “useful” must mean “sufficient”.

But it is what I said here

So then which statement of yours are you going to stand by? The two I just mentioned directly contradict each other. You really don’t see any problem with that?

 

[gurrato_alaien]

Mannyfit75:

I am Catholic and I’m in the US Army

For Protestants:

Since you believe in Sola Scriptura, do you believe in the Holy Trinity? If you believe in the Trinity, then prove to me where the word in the Bible states it. Your only resources is the Bible.

For Catholic:

You can use both Bible, and the any document that support the belief in the Holy Trinity.

Trinity is not in the bible its man made.

God is one alone

Peace.

 

[gurrato_alaien]

jim1130:

Peace be with you.

I want to say “thank you” for serving your country. Each and every day, you and all members of the Armed Services, especially those in Iraq and Afghanistan, are in my thoughts and prayers. May the peace of Christ be with you and the Lord Most High watch over and protect you and your military brethran.

Thank you for serving!!!

Peace.

Jim

What serving, its serving the evil, you call killing the people is good job.
Killing, stealing nations. is it good job?!.
I feel very sorry for American people who were led by the Terrorist usa government. The Zionists.

Peace.

 

[sandusky]

exoflare:

No, they aren’t. You still haven’t given us any reason to believe they are. Just dancing around the subject and indirectly claiming that “useful” must mean “sufficient”.

The word at issue in the English text is the Greek word dunamī (in the text it is a participle: dunamena), it used some 210 times in the N.T., and not once is it translated useful, as you have translated it. It is overwhelmingly translated as able to, and its lexical definition is to be able [to].

Moreover, in a comparison of 13 other translations, all of them use “able to.”

The Douay-Rheims translates it: “can [ability, able to] instruct thee to salvation.” I agree.

Here are two verses for you to think about:

Hebrews 2:18
*18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, **He ***[Christ] is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

Do you believe that Jesus is able to, or is He just useful in that?

Ephesians 3:20
*20 Now to Him *[the Father] who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,

Is the Father able to, or just useful in that?

Also, power, is the Greek word dunamis, from which we get our English word dynamite, and is also used in Heb 4:12: the word of God living and active; dunamis comes from dunamī, which is the word in question in the text in question:

2 Timothy 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Just Useful? No.
Able to? Yes.
Sufficient? Yes.

exoflare:

So then which statement of yours are you going to stand by? The two I just mentioned directly contradict each other. You really don’t see any problem with that?

I made both statements because I believe both to be true, but let’s stay with the second statement: Paul is talking about the Jewish Scriptures, what we call the Old Testament.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

gurrato alaien:

Trinity is not in the bible its man made.

God is one alone

Peace.

Your ignorance is abundant in both of your posts, follow the trinity outline link I posted.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

sandusky:

The word at issue in the English text is the Greek word dunamī (in the text it is a participle: dunamena), it used some 210 times in the N.T., …

Also, power, is the Greek word dunamis, from which we get our English word dynamite, and is also used in Heb 4:12: the word of God living and active; dunamis comes from dunamī, which is the word in question in the text in question:

You commited two well known word study fallacies here.

Exegetical Fallacies (Paperback)
by D. A. Carson

Exegetical Fallacies (by DA Carson)

WORD-STUDY FALLACIES: (condensed from Carson’s book)

1)The root fallacy – “pineapple” is not an apple growing on a pine

2)Semantic anachronism – dynamite is etymologically derived from “dunamis”, then, the idea of dynamite is read back into dunamis.

3)Semantic obsolescence – Is “head of the family” origin or source? It’s not so in Hellenistic Greek, only in classical Greek.

4)Appeal to unknown or unlikely meanings – ‘The law’ refers to rabbinic tradition?

5)Careless appeal to background info – born of water and Spirit (water can be referred to sperm) so physical birth and spiritual birth? Purification by water and new spirit in Ezekiel 36:25-27.

1. Verbal parallelomania – John’s prologue is compared to other remote literature to prove dependency – Bultmann and Dodd?

1. Link of language and mentality – Ancient Hebrews unable to understand past, present and future because only two aspects in their language? False assumption about technical terms – ‘sanctification’ and ‘baptism of Spirit’

8)Problems with synonyms and componential analysis – agape and phileo?

9)Selective use of evidence - Hebrew knowing is experiential, not intellectual? Knowing God is obeying and loving others but also content in John 4:50, 5:47, 13:19, 17:21)

10)Unwarranted semantic disjunctions/restrictions – false either/or meanings. E.g. the headship of Jesus – either He as Head has authority to control and demand obedience OR as Head, He is source/origin and stoops to lift us up?

11)Unwarranted restriction of semantic field – Judaism is only a technical term for a sectarian exclusiveness against Hellenist and not religion of the Jews? This is my body? “IS” could mean Fulfillment, Resemblance, Cause, Attribute or identity?

12)Unwarranted broadening of semantic range – ‘church’ (universal?) in Acts 7:38

13)Problems relating to Semitic background of Greek NT – Methodologically irresponsible to read Hebrew word into Greek equivalent

14)Neglect distinguishing peculiarities of a corpus – a fallacy that one NT writer uses a word (call/justification) with the same meaning as other NT writers

15)Unwarranted linking of sense and reference – The meaning of words in a grammatically coherent array (Three is a prime number) is different from the theoretical referent of each word (Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Locke, Berkeley)

google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=root+fallacy+carson+Dynamite+Power+Dunamis&btnG=Search

 

[mesher]

peace to all!

all i can say is that God the father, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit are three (3) distinct entity. If you remember the baptism of Jesus Christ it was describe that God the Father had spoken and the Holy Spirit in a form of a dove decended towards Jesus. All 3 of them in a scene. this is only one example, if you read the bible there are a lot more like int he creation of man, when jesus was on the cross, at the garden where He prays the Our Father.

 

[sandusky]

Daniel Marsh:

You commited two well known word study fallacies here.

Exegetical Fallacies (Paperback)
by D. A. Carson

google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=root+fallacy+carson+Dynamite+Power+Dunamis&btnG=Search

Yes, I have a great respect for Carson, and I know that he is a stickler on some of what you’ve listed, but not all of what you listed; however, no one is rewriting their lexicons because of his objections.

 

[JoshuaJ]

Mesher,

Are you saying the one God, the Father cannot manifest in various forms at one time?

 

[jim1130]

mesher:

peace to all!

all i can say is that God the father, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit are three (3) distinct entity. If you remember the baptism of Jesus Christ it was describe that God the Father had spoken and the Holy Spirit in a form of a dove decended towards Jesus. All 3 of them in a scene. this is only one example, if you read the bible there are a lot more like int he creation of man, when jesus was on the cross, at the garden where He prays the Our Father.

What is impossible for man is possible with God.

 

[Suavemente]

I see Manny’s point, he makes a good one. Interesting way to kind of “checkmate” Protestants about “sola scritura”. All I would say however if asked that same question , Prove to me the Trinity is Real, by someone who was a *non-believer * ( which Manny is not, I’m just saying) , all I would reply is that we can’t “prove” anything to anyone. We can offer Scripture and other teachings which we believe to be right and true and good, but I don’t think there is any hard proof for any “revealed” religious faith, from Judaism to Christianity (any type of Christianity) to Islam, etc. Believers take on faith, blind faith, and the do so for reasons such as these: a) it is a big part of their born culture or tradition, b) they convert into it out of personal interest or conviction, or for love, or both , and c) they find it helps them in their daily lives in some way and therefore they kind of just “keep doing what works”, without “questioning” very much. But nobody can prove anything to anybody in matters of religion or any other type of abstract concept(s) which involves faith.

 

[Della]

Believers take on faith, blind faith, and the do so for reasons such as these: a) it is a big part of their born culture or tradition, b) they convert into it out of personal interest or conviction, or for love, or both , and c) they find it helps them in their daily lives in some way and therefore they kind of just “keep doing what works”, without “questioning” very much. But nobody can prove anything to anybody in matters of religion or any other type of abstract concept(s) which involves faith.

I must quibble with you here. Not all believers have “blind faith.” Informed faith, that has searched out the truth is not blind. And it is not true that “nobody can prove anything to anybody in matters of religion.” If that is the case, then we are all wasting our time here and those of us engaged in apologetics had better find another apostolate in which to serve.

And while culture and the other things you mentioned do keep many people in one belief system or another it is not true of all believers that it is merely a subjective choice.

It certainly wasn’t for me. I wanted nothing more than to remain an ordinary Episcopalian after I’d left the Assemblies of God to return to the church of my childhood. If anyone ought to have grateful for that church and been happy to be there it should have been me. But, it wasn’t the case. It didn’t have the fullness of truth, and having begun the awful task of finding the truth at any cost, I just couldn’t pretend it didn’t matter that I hadn’t found it where I most wanted to find it. I had to press on and explore my worst fears–that the fullness of the truth might subsist in the Catholic Church.

Anyway, anyone who has come into the light of the truth found in the Catholic Church knows what I mean. There’s no more need to search or to question or to wonder if there is something more “out there.” Nothing else comes close to telling us the truth about God and man like the Church. It knows it’s Lord and it knows what men are because its Founder knew the Father and knew us through and through. What more proof could anyone need than that?

 

[Mannyfit75]

My fellow Brothers and sisters in Christ,

I posted the question to see if you can back it up with both Scripture, and decrees of the Catholic Church.

You have.

We all know that Trinity had always been in the Sacred Scripture and it was fully revealed by Jesus Christ. When Jesus received his baptism from John the Baptist, we can see that all Three Persons, are present. The Holy Spirit Descented upon Jesus, and the Heaven open and God, The Father, said. “This is my Son, to whom I am welll pleased.”

 

[mesher]

JoshuaJ:

Mesher,

Are you saying the one God, the Father cannot manifest in various forms at one time?

Joshua,

did i say God the Father cannot? i was saying that God the father was watching Jesus as he was baptized and proclaim in a loud voice that Jesus is His son and and sends down the holy spirit to Jesus. If you are God the father would call your self your son? or if you’re Jesus dieng on the cross why do you look at the heavens and cried “Father, why though had forsaken me?” if He is on the cross dieng for our sins. Who do you think jesus is talking to at that time? difinitely not himself but our God the father which is in heaven.

 

[JoshuaJ]

mesher,

You said God, the Father was watching as his son was getting baptized.

Yet the son, Jesus is called The everlasting Father.

And even though Jesus was physically on earth speaking to Nicodemus in John 3, he says in verse 13 that the Son of man is in heaven.

And in Mark 16:12 “After that **he appeared in another form ** unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”

The trinity is not 3 distinct persons. It is one God, the Father manifesting in different forms.

 

[mesher]

Joshua,

very interesting you use John chapter 3 which shows that Jesus Christ is the son of God the father whom He sent into the world. “He gave his only begotten son”… meaning God is the father and Jesus is his son, there is no mystery to that. God is much powerfull than the son, He has command over the son for as He sent him. However they are one for whatever is the son reveal into the world is of the father. whatever jesus does or says comes from the father.

regarding verse 13, he was telling Nicodemus that the Son of man is from heaven. but came down to the world but in the end be brought up.

 

[mesher]

Joshua,

regarding mark 16:12… it does not tell jesus is the God the father. However at Mark 16:19

**"After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God."

Jesus sat beside God the father in Heaven… two of them sitting side by side. even in heaven they are two individuals.**

 

[Ted_CharlotteNC]

jim1130:

Peace be with you.

I want to say “thank you” for serving your country. Each and every day, you and all members of the Armed Services, especially those in Iraq and Afghanistan, are in my thoughts and prayers. May the peace of Christ be with you and the Lord Most High watch over and protect you and your military brethran.

Thank you for serving!!!

Peace.

Jim

I agree. We owe you and your military brothers and sisters alot.

Thank you also for the question. The desire for knowledge is a gift from God. You should be thankful God desires a relationship with you. May God bless.

God the Trinity is a difficult concept, what we call a mystery. God is revealed in 3 personalities in the Bible. God the Son is Our Savior. He taught us to pray to and worship God the Father. After Jesus rose from the dead He breathed on His disciples and told them He was giving them the Holy Spirit. 3 personalities, 1 God all in unity.

As Catholics we recite the Creed at Mass to remind ourselves of what we believe. We stand in reverence and awe of what we say we believe. And most of the Creed has to do the Trinity.