Prove to me Trinity is real.

[JoshuaJ]

mesher,

He, Jesus is called The everlasting Father. Are there two Fathers?

If right hand is understood literally then your understanding would be correct but there are many scriptures that use the term right hand that has nothing to do with “to the right of someone.”

Look at Matt. 20:21-23 Why didn’t Jesus say the place on my left is already taken?

 

[JSmitty2005]

JoshuaJ:

The trinity is not 3 distinct persons. It is one God, the Father manifesting in different forms.

That sounds an awful lot like the heresies of Sabellianism, Monarchism, and Modalism.

No sooner had the Church recovered from the Gnostic heresies, than She was racked by a long series of attacks on the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity. Even in the Gnostic heresy there were indications of an attack on this most sacred belief but now, for over three hundred years, this was to be the chief problem which troubled the Church.

Sabellius came to Rome about 200 AD, and brought with him a development of an earlier heresy preached by a certain Praxeas who had taught that God the Father descended into the Virgin Mary and was Himself born of her and Himself suffered. Thus, Jesus Christ was totally identified with the Father. This version of the heresy is known by the cumbersome title of “Patripassian Monarchism” because its proponents put forward the view that it was the Father Who suffered.

Sabellius developed this view even further He taught that God ie one Person manifested in three ways. In the Old Law there was God the Father: in the time of Christ there was God the Son; and later on, there was God the Holy Spirit. God the Father is regarded as an “orb” of power from which comes forth the Divine emanation of Wisdom (Logos) and then Love (Holy Spirit). However once the work of the Spirit is accomplished this “tri-une” personality disappears and God remains in His “simplicity.” The heresy is sometimes called “Modalism” because it regards the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as merely modes of the Divine Being.

 

[sandusky]

Joshua, you ask of mesher:

Are you saying the one God, the Father cannot manifest in various forms at one time?

You further ask of mesher:

You said God, the Father was watching as his son was getting baptized.

Yet the son, Jesus is called The everlasting Father.

And even though Jesus was physically on earth speaking to Nicodemus in John 3, he says in verse 13 that the Son of man is in heaven.

And in Mark 16:12 “After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”

You continue to ask mesher:

He, Jesus is called The everlasting Father. Are there two Fathers?

If right hand is understood literally then your understanding would be correct but there are many scriptures that use the term right hand that has nothing to do with “to the right of someone.”

Look at Matt. 20:21-23 Why didn’t Jesus say the place on my left is already taken?

And you make this statement:

JoshuaJ:

The trinity is not 3 distinct persons. It is one God, the Father manifesting in different forms.

That is “Sabellianism,” or “Oneness,” or “Modalism,” or “Patripassionism.” I am sure that you know that position has been declared heretical.

Can you explain why you think it is not?

 

[JSmitty2005]

Josh, what church do you go to? I don’t think that you can even be considered Christian with such a concept of the Trinity. :nope:

 

[JoshuaJ]

sandusky,

Oneness, modalism or whatever else it may be called doesn’t mean anything to me. What is important to me is what the scriptures say.

Mesher,

Mark 16:12 doesn’t say God, the Father but Paul is clear in 1Cor. 8:6 that there is only one God, the Father. In John, Thomas declares Jesus as his Lord and his God. And as Paul said, there is only one as does Deuteronomy 6:4 declares there is only one LORD.

Jsmitty2005,

Is going to church really the criteria for being a Christian? I don’t think so. That is man’s way, not God’s way. Perhaps the scriptures do teach what you call heresy.

 

[JSmitty2005]

JoshuaJ:

Is going to church really the criteria for being a Christian? I don’t think so.

Neither do I. I was merely trying to get an idea of where you’re coming from by learning your denominational affiliation.

 

[JoshuaJ]

JSmitty2005,

I am not affiliated with any denomination. I thank my Lord and God he didn’t label anyone as man has done with about 1,000 different sects and denominations.

 

[jim1130]

JoshuaJ:

sandusky,

Oneness, modalism or whatever else it may be called doesn’t mean anything to me. What is important to me is what the scriptures say.

Mesher,

Mark 16:12 doesn’t say God, the Father but Paul is clear in 1Cor. 8:6 that there is only one God, the Father. In John, Thomas declares Jesus as his Lord and his God. And as Paul said, there is only one as does Deuteronomy 6:4 declares there is only one LORD.

Jsmitty2005,

Is going to church really the criteria for being a Christian? I don’t think so. That is man’s way, not God’s way. Perhaps the scriptures do teach what you call heresy.

Johsua - From your posts, I surmise you believe that the Bible is the lone source needed by a Christian (that only the written word matters), yes? And that anything not written or included specifically in the Bible is irrelevant, yes? And that personal interpretation of the Bible is up to the individual reader, yes?

 

[JoshuaJ]

jim1130,

Without spiritual revelation, the written word will not be very meaningful. God is the only interpreter of His word. That’s why he took his disciples aside after speaking to the masses and explained to them the meaning of the parables. Does he not speak in parables? It is He who give wisdom and understanding. Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[JSmitty2005]

JoshuaJ:

JSmitty2005,

I am not affiliated with any denomination. I thank my Lord and God he didn’t label anyone as man has done with about 1,000 different sects and denominations.

Okay, so that means that you’re a member of the nondenominational denomination.
By the way, the number of denominations is up over 30 thousand.

 

[jim1130]

JoshuaJ:

jim1130,

Without spiritual revelation, the written word will not be very meaningful. God is the only interpreter of His word. That’s why he took his disciples aside after speaking to the masses and explained to them the meaning of the parables. Does he not speak in parables? It is He who give wisdom and understanding. Let God be true and every man a liar.

So how do we know the Bible is true?

 

[JoshuaJ]

JSmitty2005,

I am at the mercy of the Lord. He is my Shepherd and Teacher. As it is written

1John 2:27 “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

Excuse me, but I must go for the time being. I will be returning to the forum next week. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[JSmitty2005]

JoshuaJ:

JSmitty2005,

I am at the mercy of the Lord. He is my Shepherd and Teacher. As it is written

1John 2:27 “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

Excuse me, but I must go for the time being. I will be returning to the forum next week. Thanks for the feedback.

Our Lord instructed his disciples to do as the pharisees say but not as they do. Isn’t he telling them to listen to men? It seems like a contradiction, but it’s not. The distinction that needs to be made is between men themselves and the doctrines of men. Some men teach the doctrines of God. These men we are to listen to.

 

[sandusky]

Josua,

You say to me, and mesher:

sandusky,

Oneness, modalism or whatever else it may be called doesn’t mean anything to me. What is important to me is what the scriptures say.

mesher,

Mark 16:12 doesn’t say God, the Father but Paul is clear in 1Cor. 8:6 that there is only one God, the Father. In John, Thomas declares Jesus as his Lord and his God. And as Paul said, there is only one as does Deuteronomy 6:4 declares there is only one LORD.

You believe that there is one God, who manifests Himself in three ways: sometimes God manifests Himself as the Father; at other times God manifests Himself as the Son; and, at still other times He manifests Himself as the H.S. He is to you then, one God who wears three different masks, if you will; rather than one God in three distinct yet equal persons.

Is that accurate?

Scripture says in Gen 22:11-12:

*11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.”
12 He *[the Angel] *said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I [the Angel] **know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” ***

The Angel is calling Himself God.

Does God also “manifest” Himself as an angel?

 

[JoshuaJ]

sandusky,

Is there anything too difficult for God?

There is only one God, the Father. God manifest in flesh to fulfill His plan of salvation. Jesus told the disciples that he would be with them always, even unto the end of the world. He is with us in form of the Spirit. As can be seen in John 14:15-18
" If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

 

[sandusky]

Joshua,

I asked a question of you in a different post:

You believe that there is one God, who manifests Himself in three ways: sometimes God manifests Himself as the Father; at other times God manifests Himself as the Son; and, at still other times He manifests Himself as the H.S. He is to you then, one God who wears three different masks, if you will; rather than one God in three distinct yet equal persons.

Is that accurate?

 

[JoshuaJ]

sandusky,

It is written “but to us there is but one God, the Father” and “God manifest in the flesh” That is accurate.

 

[sandusky]

JoshuaJ:

sandusky,

It is written “but to us there is but one God, the Father” and “God manifest in the flesh” That is accurate.

It is also written, “Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 Jn 2:23).

That is a clear differentiation between the Father and Son, and a warning about how important it is to understand God’s nature.

The truth of scripture is that the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit. It is not difficult to prove that from scripture.

John 3:35
35 “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.

John 5:20
20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

The Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father; that is an incomprehensible action, if the two are not separate and distinct persons.

John 15:9
9 “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

John 17:23-24
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

The Son also loves the apostles, as the Father loves the Son; the disciples are separate persons from the Son; therefore, the Father is also a separate person from the Son.

Matthew 3:16-17
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

Above, we have all three persons of the Trinity together. The Father speaks from heaven, the Spirit is descending as a dove, and the Son is being baptized.

The Father is speaking to the Son, Jesus is not speaking to Himself.

Go back over the verses, and pay attention to the use of personal pronouns, as well as to the distinctions they make between the person speaking, and the person spoken of, and the person spoken to.

It is clear: Father, Son, H.S. are three separate, distinct personalities; they are not one personality revealed in three modes, as you believe. That is heresy.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Jesus never wrote anything that we know of, except for when he wrote on the ground with his finger when he rescued the woman who was to be stoned to death.

The New Testament (and the Sacred Scriptures / Bible ) as we know it was assembled around AD 390 or so, by St. Ambrose, St. Jerome and St. Augustine. The Catholic Church “wrote” the Bible; the Bible didn’t come about prior to the Church.

 

[mesher]

Sandusky,



Joshua,

just open your heart and mind…

John 14:28
"You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Clearly, Jesus is not the father and vice versa since God the father is greater than him. infact he is going to the father, not yet yet with the Father at that time and difinitely not the Father.

John 8:16
**But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." **

Jesus declares here that he and the Father are “two men”… however they are one for whatever is His decisions is not of his own only but also of the Father.

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

If Jesus and God the Father is one person, on this verse Jesus asked our Father to proctect the apostles so they may be one as they were. being one here is difinitely not physical or personal oneness. I hope you know wht is is since you are a christian.

Peace…