Prove When Catholicism Started

[CatherineofA]

Let me begin by saying that I am Protestant from the Southern Baptist denomination. I became aware of the church’s role in history when I developed an interest in 16th century England AND the medieval era. It was at that time that I realized what a long and dominant role the church played in the history of western Europe. Due to this, I am VERY defensive of Catholicism when it’s attacked by fellow Christians who are anti-Catholic. In my experience, most of it is an ignorance of history and misconceptions about the teachings.

Due to my being a friend to Catholicism, I try to go back as early as possible in time to discuss apologetics. I’m aware of Ignatius’ use of the term Catholic, but I’ve found that many secular historians or non Catholic Christians argue that the term could have been referring to the univeral community of Christians and not what we know as the Catholic Church. I mentioned this because I am aware of some Catholic claims to the very early Christian past.

This is my question-Do you know what event or date or person has been accepted by most historians to be the earliest example of Catholicism? I’m looking for something that’s not been up for argument. Does anyone know when this first person or event occurred? Thanks! To stress, I am looking for what’s been accepted by the community of historians at large that might be taught in a college classroom.

 

[CWBetts]

I don’t have the answer for you now, BUT one of my Professors has done a lot of work with early Christianity. Let me see if I can wretle some info out of her. BTW you are ine of very few Baptists I have encountered that hasn’t immediatly gone into a 'Whore of Babylon" rant. It is truly appreciated.

 

[CatherineofA]

I don’t have the answer for you now, BUT one of my Professors has done a lot of work with early Christianity. Let me see if I can wretle some info out of her. BTW you are ine of very few Baptists I have encountered that hasn’t immediatly gone into a 'Whore of Babylon" rant. It is truly appreciated.

Thanks for responding! Any information would be great. By the way, I like your Thomas More icon. I’ve always admired many things about him.

 

[CWBetts]

Thanks. He’s my confirmation saint. Given you’re user name I am somehow not surprised.

 

[CatherineofA]

Thanks. He’s my confirmation saint. Given you’re user name I am somehow not surprised.

Yes, I adore her!

 

[JimG]

I’m aware of Ignatius’ use of the term Catholic, but I’ve found that many secular historians or non Catholic Christians argue that the term could have been referring to the univeral community of Christians and not what we know as the Catholic Church.

The term did refer to the universal community of Christians, of which there was only one. The community was universal and apostolic. That community is continuous, historically, with the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church counts its birthday as the first Pentecost, when, having received the Holy Spirit, the Apostles began to fulfill their mission of going out to preach to the whole world. Our bishops today are the direct successors of those apostles, having receiving the teachings from them which were handed down to their successors.

A short and useful book about early Church history is Rod Bennet’s “Four Witnesses.”

 

[CatherineofA]

The term did refer to the universal community of Christians, of which there was only one. The community was universal and apostolic. That community is continuous, historically, with the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church counts its birthday as the first Pentecost, when, having received the Holy Spirit, the Apostles began to fulfill their mission of going out to preach to the whole world. Our bishops today are the direct successors of those apostles, having receiving the teachings from them which were handed down to their successors.

A short and useful book about early Church history is Rod Bennet’s “Four Witnesses.”

Thanks for the information. However, I’m looking for history that would be taught in a college classroom. That is, what’s univerally accepted by experts (with or without Christian or Catholic affiliation). Does this book do that?

 

[Eucharisted]

Let me begin by saying that I am Protestant from the Southern Baptist denomination. I became aware of the church’s role in history when I developed an interest in 16th century England AND the medieval era. It was at that time that I realized what a long and dominant role the church played in the history of western Europe. Due to this, I am VERY defensive of Catholicism when it’s attacked by fellow Christians who are anti-Catholic. In my experience, most of it is an ignorance of history and misconceptions about the teachings.

Due to my being a friend to Catholicism, I try to go back as early as possible in time to discuss apologetics. I’m aware of Ignatius’ use of the term Catholic, but I’ve found that many secular historians or non Catholic Christians argue that the term could have been referring to the univeral community of Christians and not what we know as the Catholic Church. I mentioned this because I am aware of some Catholic claims to the very early Christian past.

This is my question-Do you know what event or date or person has been accepted by most historians to be the earliest example of Catholicism? I’m looking for something that’s not been up for argument. Does anyone know when this first person or event occurred? Thanks! To stress, I am looking for what’s been accepted by the community of historians at large that might be taught in a college classroom.

Thank you for not going into a “Church is the Whore of Babylon” rant

Now, when you say Catholicism, do you mean when people started using the term Catholic to distinguish themselves from heretics and explain what Church they belonged to, or do you mean when the Catholic Church was born?

 

[CatherineofA]

I looked up the book and one of the subjects is Ignatius. That still falls in the time period that historians don’t necessarily accept as the earliest proven example of the church. I’m looking for examples that would be taught to a graduate student in a secular university.

 

[CatherineofA]

Thank you for not going into a “Church is the Whore of Babylon” rant

Now, when you say Catholicism, do you mean when people started using the term Catholic to distinguish themselves from heretics and explain what Church they belonged to, or do you mean when the Catholic Church was born?

Sure and I’m sorry that you have to deal with the Babylon thing. I often argue against that and feel badly that people feel that way.

I am looking for when a historian would say 'this was the Catholic Church". It know it was seen as such by the Middle Ages, but how long before? When do we see the people saying they are part of the Catholic Church and have a pope? If I were asking a historian, he might say this person X or event X was debatable, but this event X was definitely what we know as the church. It can’t be argued. Even an Evangelical or athiest might say, that was the earliest accepted time of the church. A univerally accepted event or time as Catholic Church.

 

[JimG]

Thanks for the information. However, I’m looking for history that would be taught in a college classroom. That is, what’s univerally accepted by experts (with or without Christian or Catholic affiliation). Does this book do that?

The book is more of an intro to four of the early Church Fathers. It probably wouldn’t be used as course material at a secular college as it is written from a Catholic viewpoint.

Perhaps something like Eusebius’s “Ecclesiastical History” would be more what you had in mind. Eusebius was born around 260AD so he was at least closer to the early Church than we are.

Or perhaps just a study of the actual ante-nicene Fathers writings.

 

[Eucharisted]

Sure and I’m sorry that you have to deal with the Babylon thing. I often argue against that and feel badly that people feel that way.

I am looking for when a historian would say 'this was the Catholic Church". It know it was seen as such by the Middle Ages, but how long before? When do we see the people saying they are part of the Catholic Church and have a pope? If I were asking a historian, he might say this person X or event X was debatable, but this event X was definitely what we know as the church. It can’t be argued. Even an Evangelical or athiest might say, that was the earliest accepted time of the church. A univerally accepted event or time as Catholic Church.

Oh boy are you in for a treat!

Here is a website that lists the Fathers of the Church who called the Church “Catholic Church”: geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3975/challch.htm

 

[Luke65]

Here’s an interesting quote for you:

St. Victorinus (c.270AD): “In the whole world Paul taught that all the churches are arranged by sevens, that they are called seven, and that the Catholic Church is one. And first of all, indeed, that he himself also might maintain the type of seven churches, he did not exceed that number. But he wrote to the Romans, to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Thessalonians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians; afterwards he wrote to individual persons, so as not to exceed the number of seven churches. And abridging in a short space his announcement, he thus says to Timothy: “That you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the Church of the living God.” (1 Timothy 3:15) We read also that this typical number is announced by the Holy Spirit by the mouth of Isaiah: “Of seven women which took hold of one man.” (Isaiah 4:1) The one man is Christ, not born of seed; but the seven women are seven churches, receiving His bread, and clothed with his apparel, who ask that their reproach should be taken away, only that His name should be called upon them… Therefore in these seven churches, of one Catholic Church are believers, because it is one in seven by the quality of faith and election.” (Commentary on the Apocalypse 1:16)

 

[JimG]

You might also want to try these:

The Early Church, by Henry Chadwick (part of the Penguin history of the Church series, and available in paperback.)

And for a good book on the Jewish background to the emergence of Christ, try Paula Frederickson’s Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews which is written from a non-sectarian viewpoint. Her book is quite useful because it attempts to answer the question “why was Jesus crucified?” from a purely historical standpoint, disregarding the theological implications.

 

[Reuben_J]

Sure and I’m sorry that you have to deal with the Babylon thing. I often argue against that and feel badly that people feel that way.

I am looking for when a historian would say 'this was the Catholic Church". It know it was seen as such by the Middle Ages, but how long before? When do we see the people saying they are part of the Catholic Church and have a pope? If I were asking a historian, he might say this person X or event X was debatable, but this event X was definitely what we know as the church. It can’t be argued. Even an Evangelical or athiest might say, that was the earliest accepted time of the church. A univerally accepted event or time as Catholic Church.

A universally accepted event or time as Catholic Church was at the first Pentecost. I doubt if you would get any different answers from Catholics here. Of course then it was not as it is now. The church grew and expanded, built real buildings and as the community grew bigger it needed better organizations of clergies and laities to streamline the church and its teachings so that nothing was lost that had been handed down by the apostles. As times went on, clarifications needed to be handed out to clear any doubts about practices, understandings and belief of the apostles. This was especially to counter heresies that were abound and surfaced now and then.

Your using the word ‘universal’ can be problematic as inevitably non-Catholics will disagree on this definition and understanding, even though the Catholic Church maintains it is so. I guess you have to start with what the Catholics tell you about the Catholics Church and see how it goes from there.

God bless.

 

[CWBetts]

A universally accepted event or time as Catholic Church was at the first Pentecost. I doubt if you would get any different answers from Catholics here. Of course then it was not as it is now. The church grew and expanded, built real buildings and as the community grew bigger it needed better organizations of clergies and laities to streamline the church and its teachings so that nothing was lost that had been handed down by the apostles. As times went on, clarifications needed to be handed out to clear any doubts about practices, understandings and belief of the apostles. This was especially to counter heresies that were abound and surfaced now and then.

Your using the word ‘universal’ can be problematic as inevitably non-Catholics will disagree on this definition and understanding, even though the Catholic Church maintains it is so. I guess you have to start with what the Catholics tell you about the Catholics Church and see how it goes from there.

God bless.

I don’t hink that is what she is looking for. Pentecost is undeniably Christian, yes, but can we point at that from an unbiased historical stanpoint and say it is unargualbly Catholic? We, as Catholics, believe that our CHurch was founded bu Jesus himself, but she is looking for a secular, non-apologetic point in history.

 

[adstrinity]

As far as secular, I know Constatine 313 is often invoked. When he legalized Christianity in the Roman Empire, it was Catholicism he was legallizing. Keep in mind Constatine wasn’t the first as Trdat legallized Christianity for Armenia in 301…

 

[Reuben_J]

I don’t hink that is what she is looking for. Pentecost is undeniably Christian, yes, but can we point at that from an unbiased historical stanpoint and say it is unargualbly Catholic? We, as Catholics, believe that our CHurch was founded bu Jesus himself, but she is looking for a secular, non-apologetic point in history.

Honestly, and in my heart, my explanation notwithstanding, I believe the Church started at Pentcost or at least when Peter arrived in Rome. We are talking about how something start and therefore have to trace it to its origin.

But I guess what you say makes sense too. BTW as an anlogy, when did Israel/Zionism started - with the Balfour’s Declaration which was much earlier or in 1949 when the war of partition finally over? What would the Israelists say and what would secular historians say?

 

[Reuben_J]

edit - double posting.

 

[CWBetts]

Honestly, and in my heart, my explanation notwithstanding, I believe the Church started at Pentcost. We are talking about how something start and therefore have to trace it to its origin.

But I guess what you say makes sense too. BTW as an anlogy, when did Israel/Zionism started - with the Balfour’s Declaration which was much earlier or in 1949 when the war of partition finally over? What would the Israelists say and what would secular historians say?

I agree, but “in my heart, I believe” does not work when talking about history