proverb 8

[Amanyoh]

Dear catholic answers,

i am confused when a friend of mine who is a member of Johova witness questions me on proverb chater eight, he was saying this chapter talks about Jesus’ being created billions years ago before the creation of everything in heaven and earth ,
what does really Proverb eight talk?

thank you

 

[PJM]

******=Amanyoh;5665634]Dear catholic answers,

i am confused when a friend of mine who is a member of Johova witness questions me on proverb chater eight, he was saying this chapter talks about Jesus’ being created billions years ago before the creation of everything in heaven and earth ,
what does really Proverb eight talk?

thank you

Friend, one should expect lack of wisdom and understanding from one who refuses to acknowlede the Diety of God, and the Diest of Christ.

The topic being discussed is “Wisdom”. “19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than choice silver.”

What is being said is that God is all good things perfectly. Always was, is and always will be:thumbsup:

For the Record, because Jesus is too God, He also always was, is and always will be [as the Son of God, second person in the Blessed Trinity.]

You’ll likely not be able to “sell” this truth, because to them Jesus is not a Diety.

Love and prayers,

Love and prayers,

 

[DOShea]

Without any specifics, I’m assuming your friend is referring to Proverbs 8:22. Using the ASV text, it reads: Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.

The way this is written, it is supposed to be Wisdom speaking, i.e. the Divine Word, which the NT Gospel of John and the Apostles relate directly to Jesus. The word “possessed” in the verse, when translated from Hebrew into Greek, was translated using one of two different Greek words, one meaning “created” (as the Septuigint has it) and the other meaning “possessed.”

Because of these different meanings in Greek, you can see how one rendering would have God the Father “possessing” Jesus in the beginning, and the other would have God the Father “creating” Wisdom (Jesus) at some point. It was over this very point that the Arian heresy arose in the early Christian Church, with the Arians denying that God the Father and God the Son coexisted eternally. Their view was, interpreting this verse to mean “created,” meant that God the Father created the Son, thus the Son was not eternal and not co-equal with God the Father.

I suspect your friend is trying to make that same argument.

This controversy was dealt with at the Council of Nicea, and the phrase in the Nicene Creed, “begotten, not made…” is there to specifically answer the Arian controversy. So is the phrase “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,” It is an affirmation that Jesus and God the Father are a single co-eternal essence. Jesus is “from the substance” of the Father, not “from the same substance.”

So that is how I would answer your friend. It is a difference of how the verse is interpreted, meaning there is a difference in what you each believe the writer meant when he wrote the words.

 

[PJM]

=DOShea;5665903]Without any specifics, I’m assuming your friend is referring to Proverbs 8:22. Using the ASV text, it reads: Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.

The way this is written, it is supposed to be Wisdom speaking, i.e. the Divine Word, which the NT Gospel of John and the Apostles relate directly to Jesus. The word “possessed” in the verse, when translated from Hebrew into Greek, was translated using one of two different Greek words, one meaning “created” (as the Septuigint has it) and the other meaning “possessed.”

Because of these different meanings in Greek, you can see how one rendering would have God the Father “possessing” Jesus in the beginning, and the other would have God the Father “creating” Wisdom (Jesus) at some point. It was over this very point that the Arian heresy arose in the early Christian Church, with the Arians denying that God the Father and God the Son coexisted eternally. Their view was, interpreting this verse to mean “created,” meant that God the Father created the Son, thus the Son was not eternal and not co-equal with God the Father.

I suspect your friend is trying to make that same argument.

This controversy was dealt with at the Council of Nicea, and the phrase in the Nicene Creed, “begotten, not made…” is there to specifically answer the Arian controversy. So is the phrase “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,” It is an affirmation that Jesus and God the Father are a single co-eternal essence. Jesus is “from the substance” of the Father, not “from the same substance.”

So that is how I would answer your friend. It is a difference of how the verse is interpreted, meaning there is a difference in what you each believe the writer meant when he wrote the words.

***Thanks, but this is a Catholic site. This is what the Bible, not the recent NWT actually says.: 22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old. ***

*** Jehovah is a “made up” word for a made up god.***

 

[DOShea]

Thanks, but this is a Catholic site. This is what the Bible, not the recent NWT actually says.: 22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old.

Jehovah is a “made up” word for a made up god

.

Being a Catholic I’m well aware of what this site is. That is why I specified that I was using the ASV text which happened to be the only copy I had available at my fingertips when I wrote it. It doesn’t matter what English text you use, because it isn’t a matter of dispute with the English language.

What my Catholic Bible I have in front of me now (NAB) says is this:

“The Lord begot me, the firstborn of his ways* the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago”

What the asterisk notes is that this is a foreshadowing of the plurality of the divine Persons, which was revealed when Jesus Christ became incarnate. I think I made this very clear when I spoke of John’s gospel and the teaching of the Apostles.

The issue is one of the Greek translation from Hebrew. This was what the Council of Nicea addressed, they didn’t address verses in English. They addressed the Arian controversy, i.e. - those who interpreted this verse rendered in Greek to mean God created the Son. The same issue is what the original poster was concerned about.

 

[Dan_Parker]

.

Being a Catholic I’m well aware of what this site is. That is why I specified that I was using the ASV text which happened to be the only copy I had available at my fingertips when I wrote it. It doesn’t matter what English text you use, because it isn’t a matter of dispute with the English language.

What my Catholic Bible I have in front of me now (NAB) says is this:

“The Lord begot me, the firstborn of his ways* the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago”

What the asterisk notes is that this is a foreshadowing of the plurality of the divine Persons, which was revealed when Jesus Christ became incarnate. I think I made this very clear when I spoke of John’s gospel and the teaching of the Apostles.

The issue is one of the Greek translation from Hebrew. This was what the Council of Nicea addressed, they didn’t address verses in English. They addressed the Arian controversy, i.e. - those who interpreted this verse rendered in Greek to mean God created the Son. The same issue is what the original poster was concerned about.

Here is the NJB.
NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being.

Yahweh is not a problem for me. No one knows for sure how YHWH was pronounced and than includes Yahweh. That is just as much of a made up name as any are, for that matter.

The point is that the Son was created, not how one pronounces the name of the one who created him.

 

[Todd_Easton]

The proverb is about wisdom, the divine wisdom that God used to create the universe. The idea that there was ever a time when God was without wisdom is ridiculous.

 

[Dan_Parker]

The proverb is about wisdom, the divine wisdom that God used to create the universe. The idea that there was ever a time when God was without wisdom is ridiculous.

Early Church Fathers who Catholics consider to be Orthodox believed that Wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-30 was the Son. Are you allowed to disagree with this in such a dogmatic fashion? Why do you call them ridiculous?

 

[Todd_Easton]

Early Church Fathers who Catholics consider to be Orthodox believed that Wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-30 was the Son. Are you allowed to disagree with this in such a dogmatic fashion? Why do you call them ridiculous?

I think you misunderstand me; the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8:22-30 was indeed the Son of God. However, you seem to think that God and Wisdom can exist apart from one another as two separate beings but that is not the case; they are inseparable; they form one divine being. Otherwise, you are saying that God can exist without wisdom, which is ridiculous.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I think you misunderstand me; the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8:22-30 was indeed the Son of God. However, you seem to think that God and Wisdom can exist apart from one another as two separate beings but that is not the case; they are inseparable; they form one divine being. Otherwise, you are saying that God can exist without wisdom, which is ridiculous.

In Scripture the Hebrew hokma was used of the practical application of knowledge in some work or activity. Here is a good example:

NJB Exodus 35:30 Moses then said to the Israelites, 'Look, Yahweh has singled out Bezalel son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 31 and has filled him with the spirit of God in wisdom, knowledge and skill in every kind of craft: 32 in designing and carrying out work in gold and silver and bronze, 33 in cutting stones to be set, in wood carving and in executing every kind of work.

We might not think of wisdom in English as what it takes to perform crafts, but in Hebrew this was so.

With his **first **creation Yahweh demonstrated his Wisdom in this way for the first time:
NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being. 24 The deep was not, when I was born, nor were the springs with their abounding waters. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; 26 before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world. 27 When he fixed the heavens firm, I was there, when he drew a circle on the surface of the deep, 28 when he thickened the clouds above, when the sources of the deep began to swell, 29 when he assigned the sea its boundaries – and the waters will not encroach on the shore – when he traced the foundations of the earth, 30 I was beside the master craftsman, delighting him day after day, ever at play in his presence,

Interestingly, Wisdom Personified as the Son of God here is also depicted as the master craftsman. He is himself displaying Wisdom as depicted in the Hebrew language.

Once one understands what Wisdom means in Hebrew it is easy to understand how God could be without Wisdom in the sense of making something.

That is not to say he was not capable prior to this, but he demonstrated it for the first time when he created his Son.

 

[puppypatrol]

Dear catholic answers,

i am confused when a friend of mine who is a member of Johova witness questions me on proverb chater eight, he was saying this chapter talks about Jesus’ being created billions years ago before the creation of everything in heaven and earth ,
what does really Proverb eight talk?

thank you

First of all, the verse you are referring to is not speaking of Jesus specifically but of Wisdom which was created by God. It was not Jesus that was created and the first born of God, but Wisdom which was manifested in Jesus at his incarnation as is mentioned by the USCCB in the following…

Proverbs 8:22 (5) "The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; 23 From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains or springs of water; 25 Before the mountains were settled into place, before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet the earth and the fields were not made, nor the first clods of the world.
27 "When he established the heavens I was there, when he marked out the vault over the face of the deep; 28 When he made firm the skies above, when he fixed fast the foundations of the earth; 29 When he set for the sea its limit, so that the waters should not transgress his command; 30 Then was I beside him as his craftsman, and I was his delight day by day, Playing before him all the while, 31 playing on the surface of his earth; and I found delight in the sons of men.

5 [22-31] Wisdom is of divine origin. It is here represented as a being which existed before all things (Proverb 8:22-26) and concurred with God when he planned and executed the creation of the universe, adorned it with beauty and variety, and established its wonderful order (Proverb 8:27-30). Here that plurality of divine Persons is foreshadowed which was afterward to be fully revealed when Wisdom in the Person of Jesus Christ became incarnate.

Once again, it is important to read a verse in CONTEXT and completely.

 

[Dan_Parker]

First of all, the verse you are referring to is not speaking of Jesus specifically but of Wisdom which was created by God. It was not Jesus that was created and the first born of God, but Wisdom which was manifested in Jesus at his incarnation as is mentioned by the USCCB in the following…

Once again,

Dan:
Thanks for your reference. I bold below in what you supply that it does not really say that Wisdom was created at the incarnation but the incarnation was AFTERWARD and that this is when plurality was fully revealed.

puppypatrol:

Proverbs 8:22 (5) "The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; 23 From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains or springs of water; 25 Before the mountains were settled into place, before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet the earth and the fields were not made, nor the first clods of the world.
27 "When he established the heavens I was there, when he marked out the vault over the face of the deep; 28 When he made firm the skies above, when he fixed fast the foundations of the earth; 29 When he set for the sea its limit, so that the waters should not transgress his command; 30 Then was I beside him as his craftsman, and I was his delight day by day, Playing before him all the while, 31 playing on the surface of his earth; and I found delight in the sons of men.

5 [22-31] Wisdom is of divine origin. It is here represented as a being which existed before all things (Proverb 8:22-26) and concurred with God when he planned and executed the creation of the universe, adorned it with beauty and variety, and established its wonderful order (Proverb 8:27-30). Here that plurality of divine Persons is foreshadowed which was afterward to be fully revealed when Wisdom in the Person of Jesus Christ became incarnate.

 

[Amanyoh]

thanks everybody for your kind reply
I have another doubt, Revelation 3 when in the beginning of the chapter said christ is the first created being?

I need your kind help

 

[Dan_Parker]

thanks everybody for your kind reply
I have another doubt, Revelation 3 when in the beginning of the chapter said christ is the first created being?

I need your kind help

It is true that some scholars see Revelation 3:14 as an allusion to Proverbs 8:22:

DRA Revelation 3:14 And to the angel of the church of Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God:

NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me,** first-fruits of his fashioning**, before the oldest of his works.

 

[Nita]

I see the references to Jesus being “created” at the very beginning as meaning that before God ever created the universe and human persons, He planned to unite Himself to a human body and soul – it was in His mind. This thought, this being in the mind of God, makes it real, makes it a reality, even tho in the created physical universe it had not yet occurred. Thus the incarnation, Jesus, *existed/was created/was present *in the mind of God before anything else was created.

Pope Benedict XVI said some words to this effect:
From Pope Benedict’s 6/6/08 address during the LOH celebration of the Third Hour.
Taken from L’Osservatore Romano 10/8/08 edition
"The history of salvation is not a small event, on a poor planet, in the immensity of the universe. It is not a minimal thing which happens by chance on a lost planet. It is the motive for everything, the motive for creation. Everything is created so that this story can exist, the encounter between God and his creature.

**In this sense, salvation history, the Covenant, precedes creation**.  During the hellenistic period, Judaism developed the idea that the Torah would have preceded the creation of the material world.  This material world seems to have been created solely to make room for the Torah, for this Word of God that creates the answer and becomes the history of love.  The mystery of Christ already is mysteriously revealed here.

This is what we are told in the Letter to the Ephesians and to the Colossians:  Christ is the "prototypos", the firstborn of creation, the idea for which the universe was conceived. "

All that is created has its origin in the mind of God. God conceived His incarnation (Jesus) before He conceived any one of us.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I see the references to Jesus being “created” at the very beginning as meaning that before God ever created the universe and human persons, He planned to unite Himself to a human body and soul – it was in His mind. This thought, this being in the mind of God, makes it real, makes it a reality, even tho in the created physical universe it had not yet occurred. Thus the incarnation, Jesus, *existed/was created/was present *in the mind of God before anything else was created.

Pope Benedict XVI said some words to this effect:
From Pope Benedict’s 6/6/08 address during the LOH celebration of the Third Hour.
Taken from L’Osservatore Romano 10/8/08 edition
"The history of salvation is not a small event, on a poor planet, in the immensity of the universe. It is not a minimal thing which happens by chance on a lost planet. It is the motive for everything, the motive for creation. Everything is created so that this story can exist, the encounter between God and his creature.

**In this sense, salvation history, the Covenant, precedes creation**.  During the hellenistic period, Judaism developed the idea that the Torah would have preceded the creation of the material world.  This material world seems to have been created solely to make room for the Torah, for this Word of God that creates the answer and becomes the history of love.  The mystery of Christ already is mysteriously revealed here.

This is what we are told in the Letter to the Ephesians and to the Colossians:  Christ is the "prototypos", the firstborn of creation, the idea for which the universe was conceived. "

All that is created has its origin in the mind of God. God conceived His incarnation (Jesus) before He conceived any one of us.

Dan:
What is actually said there is:
NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being. 24 The deep was not, when I was born, nor were the springs with their abounding waters. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; 26 before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world. 27 When he fixed the heavens firm, I was there, when he drew a circle on the surface of the deep, 28 when he thickened the clouds above, when the sources of the deep began to swell, 29 when he assigned the sea its boundaries – and the waters will not encroach on the shore – when he traced the foundations of the earth, 30 I was beside the master craftsman, delighting him day after day, ever at play in his presence,

Dan:
Wisdom speaking here says that **his **creation happened before the oldest of his works, before the earth. He did not say the plan was put into place then.

 

[Nita]

Dan:
What is actually said there is:
NJB Proverbs 8:22 'Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. 23 From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being. 24 The deep was not, when I was born, nor were the springs with their abounding waters. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; 26 before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world. 27 When he fixed the heavens firm, I was there, when he drew a circle on the surface of the deep, 28 when he thickened the clouds above, when the sources of the deep began to swell, 29 when he assigned the sea its boundaries – and the waters will not encroach on the shore – when he traced the foundations of the earth, 30 I was beside the master craftsman, delighting him day after day, ever at play in his presence,

Dan:
Wisdom speaking here says that **his **creation happened before the oldest of his works, before the earth. He did not say the plan was put into place then.

I didn’t say the “plan” was there – I said what is in the mind of God is real; it “exists” there. The “it” we are talking about is Jesus, God incarnate.
In the Divine eternal reality, Jesus was “created” first. Time, in relation to existing, is different for God than for us.
Jesus could say - “Before Abraham was, I Am.” (John 8:58)
God could say to Jeremiah - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you…” (Jer 1:5)

For God, Jeremiah existed before he was conceived here on earth; God “knew” him.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I didn’t say the “plan” was there – I said what is in the mind of God is real; it “exists” there. The “it” we are talking about is Jesus, God incarnate.
In the Divine eternal reality, Jesus was “created” first. Time, in relation to existing, is different for God than for us.
Jesus could say - “Before Abraham was, I Am.” (John 8:58)
God could say to Jeremiah - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you…” (Jer 1:5)

For God, Jeremiah existed before he was conceived here on earth; God “knew” him.

Dan:
I am not limiting God’s foreknowledge at all. I am merely pointing out that the explicit language used has nothing to do with foreknowledge. Wisdom says in the past tense that Yahweh created him before the earth. I am able to accept exactly Solomon was inspired to write.

Could God have known ahead of time exactly what would happen centuries in advance? Sure! But that thought is not expressed in Proverbs 8, not even a hint of it.

 

[puppypatrol]

Again, you have to remember that Proverb 8 is speaking of WISDOM not Jesus. Wisdom was manifested in the incarnation of Jesus, not Jesus in Wisdom.

 

[Nita]

Dan:
I am not limiting God’s foreknowledge at all. I am merely pointing out that the explicit language used has nothing to do with foreknowledge. Wisdom says in the past tense that Yahweh created him before the earth. I am able to accept exactly Solomon was inspired to write.
.

I realize you do not believe in the Trinity.

I don’t always express myself clearly. I’ll give it another shot.
We believe Jesus was God and man. As God, the Second Person of the Trinity, He us uncreated. But the human body and soul He would unite Himself to was created. And it was the first human body and soul that was “created” in the mind of God ---- prior to any actual physical creation.

If you’ve understood what I was trying to say, but just don’t agree – let me know. And I’ll quit trying to say the same thing over and over in different words.