Proverbs 8 and Jehovah's Witnesses

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I am in a debate in another forum with a Jehovah’s Witness who seems to seriously be reconsidering his faith. I have become recently aware that Proverbs 8 is a popular passage among them for proving that the Son of God is in fact a created being, and that this reference is supposedly damaging to Trinitarians. Can someone give me a relatively “simple” refutation of this argument, and also explain to him precisely who the passage is talking about and who “wisdom personified” is (his words)? He also asks whether in the original language this is talking about a woman.
 
Is there a particular verse? JW’s don’t usually refer to an entire chapter.
 
I see what you mean about it being a bit over your head. I have been doing some work with JW’s myself lately, so maybe I can show you some of the ways I have researched things such as this.

According to the quote in your opening post, it talks about the hebrew word that is used for created in that verse. Her is a link that shows the meaning of qanah, and how it is translated in other verses. This site uses the KJV, most sites like this do, I have never found one that uses anything else.

blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/7/1160637070-7582.html

Often when translating hebrew, or greek into english there isn’t an exact equivelant. As long as we view scripture as a whole, and view it in light of what we know from tradition this doesn’t create a problem. It is the sola scriptura types, and especially JW’s that have a hard time getting over the one verse that seems to say that Jesus was created. Here is another site where you can look up a verse, and see the wording of several versions at a time. None are Catholic, but you can always look that up separately.

biblegateway.com/passage/

I think that the answer is to point out the difficulties with translation into english, and suggest that we need to look at all of scripture (since he will believe that it cannot contradict itself) and consider the definition in a more complete way. It is impossible to include such information when translating a particular verse.

Hope this helps.
 
Hi all 🙂

Here’s the chapter Jehovah’s Witnesses refer to:

8:22 The Lord created me as the beginning of his works,
before his deeds of long ago.
8:23 From eternity I was appointed,
from the beginning, from before the world existed.
8:24 When there were no deep oceans I was born,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
8:25 before the mountains were set in place –
before the hills – I was born,
8:26 before he made the earth and its fields,
or the beginning of the dust of the world.
8:27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he marked out the horizon over the face of the deep,
8:28 when he established the clouds above,
when the fountains of the deep grew strong,
8:29 when he gave the sea his decree
that the waters should not pass over his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
8:30 then I was beside him as a master craftsman,
and I was his delight day by day,
rejoicing before him at all times,
8:31 rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth,
and delighting in its people.
 
The first part of Prov 8 says directly that the poetry is about Wisdom.

Prov. 8:1 Does not Wisdom call, and Understanding raise her voice?

Notice that in Hebrew “wisdom” is feminine gendered.

“Proof text without context is pretext.” - S. Hahn
 
The first part of Prov 8 says directly that the poetry is about Wisdom.

Prov. 8:1 Does not Wisdom call, and Understanding raise her voice?

Notice that in Hebrew “wisdom” is feminine gendered.

“Proof text without context is pretext.” - S. Hahn
Correct. Though the Wisdom passages here and other biblical books have been seen by various spiritual writers as a symbolic or poetic reference to Christ useful for reflection on his person and attributes, it cannot in any sense be considered a direct reference and literal description of Christ. To try to apply it to him in this over-literal sense is carrying the allegory too far.
 
So… is this passage metaphorically talking about Jesus?
I would agree with fidelis.

This will be a hard sell with a JW though. Also try making the point that there are so many other places in scripture that claim Christ’s divinity, and that he is begotten, and not created that this chapter must be understood in a different way. We also cannot just discount all of the NT evidence for his divinity.
 
Just thinking aloud:
Wisdom is “the Word”, the pre-incarnate Christ?

But then Prov.8 does sound like “the Word” was created and therefore not divine.

NT proofs for Jesus’ divinity will be needed for your JW friend. Be careful with John 1 in the JW Bible translation … “was **a **god”.
 
Hi believers, 🙂

Who tells Jehovah’s Witnesses or other followers of the Arian heresy that the Book of Wisdom refers to the “Wisdom of God”? If the wisdom defined in this book is a direct and literal reference to the Word in John, then we must acknowledge that Solomon asked for Jesus (wisdom), and what God granted to Solomon was Jesus before the incarnation. Besides, if that Wisdom was the divine and uncreated Word, why did not anyone know and talk about it until Solomon’s reign? Another question: why did John the evangelist say “Word” rather than “wisdom” in the prologue to the Gospel?
 
Proverts 8:22 …
*The Lord *created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. …

Any commentary I’ve read says “wisdom” refers to Jesus. Now a possible explanation for the correctness of the word "created" in reference to Our Lord. In His divinity, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, He is of course uncreated. But Our Lord’s human nature was “created” in the same way that we are considered created.

As to how He, Jesus incarnate, was created *“before the *beginning of the earth”, I have also always understood that God knew man would fall even before He created Adam, and that He knew how He would redeem us - that He (2nd Person) would take on a human nature. For God, time is different; For God, pure spirit, knowing something in His intellect may equal its actually being. (cf Jer 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;…)

Just some food for thought.

Nita
 
the Hebrew word, “created” in Proverbs 8:22 can mean possessed as in one owns something, or can means buy like in purchasing something, or can mean made as in he made something from something. It does not have the meaning of creation out of nothing. Personally, I do not think wisdom is speaking about Christ at all. No one in the New Testament quotes this text as applying to Christ. See my link above on Memra, I think this has a closer relation to Logos than does wisdom.

Also, simply ask him, if there was a time when God lacked wisdom? That God was less then himself?

** wisdom is an attribute of God.**

Exodus 35:31
And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

1 Kings 3:28
And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.

Ezra 7:25
And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.

Job 36:5
Behold, God is mighty, and despiseth not any: he is mighty in strength and wisdom.

Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 1:24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
 
the Hebrew word, “created” in Proverbs 8:22 can mean possessed as in one owns something, or can means buy like in purchasing something, or can mean made as in he made something from something. It does not have the meaning of creation out of nothing. Personally, I do not think wisdom is speaking about Christ at all. No one in the New Testament quotes this text as applying to Christ./

Daniel,
Do you mean this chapter is not cited anywhere in the gospels or epistles? If so, I agree. Can’t think of any place Proverbs 8 is quoted in the NT.
Or do you mean no one in New Testament times has cited these passages as referring to Jesus? If this is the case, I disagree. Will begin with a few footnotes to Proverbs 8 in the George Haydock Bible:
Ver 1 …Some explain this of the light which is communicated to men; but the Fathers apply it to Jesus Christ, some of the expressions regarding his divine, and others his human nature.

[Haydock bible (DRV) translates v22 as “The Lord possessed me”
rather than “The Lord created me…”]
Ver 22… Possessed. As Christ was with God equal to him in eternity. Jo. i, Sept. “created,” which many of the Fathers explain of the word incarnate. …

Footnote in NAB on 8:22-31: Wisdom is of divine origin. It is here represented as a being which existed before all things (22026) and concurred with God when he planned and executed the creation of the universe, adorned it with beauty and variety, and established its wonderful order (27-30). Here that plurality of divine Persons is foreshadowed which was afterward to be fully revealed when Wisdom in the Person of Jesus Christ became incarnate.

RSV Harper Study Bible: Footnote 8:22 …The New Testament writers looked upon Christ as the Incarnate Wisdom.

Nita
 
Hi Nita, I mean that the New Testament does not directly quote Proverbs 8 at all. But, church fathers did apply wisdom to Jesus or Son of God in their writings.
Expressions which appear to contain the statement that the Son was created are found in Clement of Alexandria (Strom., V, xiv; VI, vii), Tatian (Orat., v), Tertullian (“Adv. Prax.” vi; "Adv. “Adv. Hermong.”, xviii, xx), Origen (In Joan., I, n. 22). Clement speaks of Wisdom as “created before all things” (protoktistos), and Tatian terms the Word the "first-begotten work of (ergon prototokon) Of the Father. Yet the meaning of these authors is clear. In Colossians 1:16, St. Paul says that all things were created in the Son. This was understood to signify that creation took place according to exemplar ideas predetermined by God and existing in the Word. In view of this, it might be said that the Father created the Word, this term being used in place of the more accurate generated, inasmuch as the exemplar ideas of creation were communicated by the Father to the Son. Or, again, the actual Creation of the world might be termed the creation of the Word, since it takes place according to the ideas which exist in the Word. The context invariably shows that the passage is to be understood in one or another of these senses. The expression is undoubtedly very harsh, and it certainly would never have been employed but for the verse, Proverbs 8:22, which is rendered in the Septuagint and the old Latin versions, “The Lord created (ektise) me, who am the beginning of His ways.” As the passage was understood as having reference to the Son, it gave rise to the question **how it could be said that Wisdom was created (Origen, “Princ.”, I, ii, n. 3). **It is further to be remembered that accurate terminology in regard to the relations between the Three Persons was the fruit of the controversies which sprang up in the fourth century. **The writers of an earlier period were not concerned with Arianism, **and employed expressions which in the light of subsequent errors are seen to be not merely inaccurate, but dangerous. (4) **Greater difficulty is perhaps presented by a series of passages which appear to assert that prior to the Creation of the world the Word was not a distinct hypostasis from the Father. These are found in Justin (C. Tryphon., lxi), Tatian (Con. Graecos, v), Athenagoras (Legat., x), Theophilus (Ad Autol., II, x, 22); Hippolytus (Con. Noet., x); Tertullian (“Adv. Prax.”, v-vii; “Adv. Hermogenem” xviii). Thus Theophilus writes (op. cit., n. 22): **"What else is this voice [heard in Paradise] but the Word of God Who is also His Son? . . . For before anything came into being, He had Him as a counsellor, being His own mind and thought ). But when God wished to make all that He had determined on, then did He beget Him as the uttered Word [logos prophorikos], the firstborn of all creation, not, however, Himself being left without Reason (logos), but having begotten Reason, and ever holding converse with Reason." Expressions such as these are undoubtedly due to the influence of the Stoic philosophy: the logos endiathetos and logos prophorikos were current conceptions of that school. It is evident that these apologists were seeking to explain the Christian Faith to their pagan readers in terms with which the latter were familiar. Some Catholic writers have indeed thought that the influence of their previous training did lead some of them into Subordinationism, although the Church herself was never involved in the error (see LOGOS). Yet it does not seem necessary to adopt this conclusion. If the point of view of the writers be borne in mind, the expressions, strange as they are, will be seen not to be incompatibIe with orthodox belief. The early Fathers, as we have said, regarded Proverbs 8:22, and Colossians 1:15, as distinctly teaching that there is a sense in which the Word, begotten before all worlds, may rightly be said to have been begotten also in time. This temporal generation they conceived to be none other than the act of creation. They viewed this as the complement of the eternal generation, inasmuch as it is the external manifestation of those creative ideas which from all eternity the Father has communicated to the Eternal Word. Since, in the very same works which contain these perplexing expressions, other passages are found teaching explicitly the eternity of the Son, it appears most natural to interpret them in this sense. It should further be remembered that throughout this period theologians, when treating of the relation of the Divine Persons to each other, invariably regard them in connection with the cosmogony. Only later, in the Nicene epoch,
 
Origen wrote,
  1. Now, in the same way in which we have understood that Wisdom was the beginning of the ways of God, and is said to be created, forming beforehand and containing within herself the species and beginnings of all creatures, must we understand her to be the Word of God, because of her disclosing to all other beings, i.e., to universal creation, the nature of the mysteries and secrets which are contained within the divine wisdom; and on this account she is called the Word, because she is, as it were, the interpreter of the secrets of the mind. And therefore that language which is found in the Acts of Paul, where it is said that “here is the Word a living being,” appears to me to be rightly used. John, however, with more sublimity and propriety, says in the beginning of his Gospel, when defining God by a special definition to be the Word, “And God was the Word? and this was in the beginning with God.” Let him, then, who assigns a beginning to the Word or Wisdom of God, take care that he be not guilty of impiety against the unbegotten Father Himself, seeing he denies that He had always been a Father, and had generated the Word, and had possessed wisdom in all preceding periods, whether they be called times or ages, or anything else that can be so entitled.
Origen, “Princ.”, I, ii, n. 3

newadvent.org/fathers/04121.htm

You may want to read this full passage at the link in case there is something useful, I think paragraphs 3-8 are useful but too large to post here.
 
Never saw this Chapter applied to Jesus before. A bit off-topic, but since ‘Wisdom’ is feminine-gendered in Hebrew, I sometimes see this passages applied to Our Lady in a sense. Unless they want to say Jesus is female.
 
1 Corinthians 1:23-35 (King James Version)

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, **Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. **

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

:confused:
 
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