Proving Exodus

[PazzoGrande]

I was reading articles on Exodus, and notably the one in Wikipedia says something to the effect that archaeologists generally agree that it wasn’t a factual account.

Of course, Wikipedia isn’t a great source. So does anyone here know of any resources (especially online ones) where I can read about proof for Exodus?

At least in my mind, it feels that the truth of Exodus is important. If Judaism is a religion that believes in the God who revealed Himself, the story of that revelation is an important one. It seems that without it, Judaism wouldn’t have much basis. At least that’s how it works in my mind; if anyone here cares to enlighten me, I’d appreciate that greatly.

We Christians have it better off on this issue because we know a lot more about how the Gospels were written and they had witnesses attest to the general gist of it before the stories were compiled. Still, the truth of Judaism – and of Exodus – is important because Christianity was rooted in Judaism and the Transfiguration had Moses appearing with Jesus.

 

[farpinho]

What about this? biblearchaeology.org/post/2010/03/08/The-Name-Yahweh-in-Egyptian-Hieroglyphic-Texts.aspx

Other than that (which I find the most interesting IMO), we have more interesting articles here biblearchaeology.org/search.aspx?q=exodus

I hope it helps

PS.: I would “rely” on Wikipedia articles with a grain of salt myself… en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_by_religion (not to mean anything… just saying… )

 

[TimothyH]

What’s more important that whether it actually happened or not is what the Hebrew story teaches us about God, about Jesus, about our own lives as Christians and about Heaven and Hell.

-Tim-

 

[Elizium23]

PS.: I would “rely” on Wikipedia articles with a grain of salt myself… en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_by_religion (not to mean anything… just saying… )

That is interesting. 2,660 atheists, 1,794 Christians, 566 Pastafarians, 41 Satanists.

I am not sure how much it really says. 100% of that category is self-identification. I suspect that the number of anonymous and closeted Christians is far higher in proportion to the other claims.

However, there is no ignoring the atheist presence on Wikipedia and its lobbying power regarding the way information is included and presented in articles. In a way, Wikipedia is a branch of the Free Software Movement, and this movement is dominated by technical people overwhelmingly known to be politically liberal and religiously atheist. As a conservative Christian myself, and a technical person as well, this dismays me, because the rapid adoption of technology around the world and the rapid nature of communication on the Internet have converged to a critical mass for vociferous opponents of religion and conservatism. Wikipedia is on the front lines of this struggle. We need to attract and retain more editors with diverse points of view, and that means not letting the liberal atheists scare off the conservative Christians, it means training others to respond to content disputes in the proper manner, and giving them the tools they need to stand their ground when presented with tendentious editors who do not approve of a Christian POV, even in articles related to Christianity.

I am sorry for this off-topic rant. But I regularly see Wikipedia vilified by people who are competent to improve it. Any small contribution helps, and if you would rather spend the energy talking trash about Wikipedia than creating an account and improving it, then you are part of the problem.

 

[PazzoGrande]

PS.: I would “rely” on Wikipedia articles with a grain of salt myself… en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_by_religion (not to mean anything… just saying… )

Thanks A TON for the links I do wonder, though, how reliable are these articles and if the authors are really all that qualified. I’m still trying to navigate through it but a cursory glance suggests they believe in the Old Testament being literally true. That poses a credibility problem for someone with a Catholic eye.

 

[farpinho]

Thanks A TON for the links I do wonder, though, how reliable are these articles and if the authors are really all that qualified. I’m still trying to navigate through it but a cursory glance suggests they believe in the Old Testament being literally true. That poses a credibility problem for someone with a Catholic eye.

Well, I admit you will never find a direct proof that the Exodus really did happen, but you can extract some good things from these articles if you know how to select it, for example as an evidence that the israelites had indeed been in Egypt You don’t have to agree with everything they say, as long as you find some evidences that support the Exodus took place. Like someone said to me in another post, the important thing to us Catholics is that Jesus attributed the law to Moses.

 

[PazzoGrande]

What’s more important that whether it actually happened or not is what the Hebrew story teaches us about God, about Jesus, about our own lives as Christians and about Heaven and Hell.

-Tim-

I would disagree with that.

With us Christians, for example, if the story of Christ never happened, then our religion is baseless and false. If there was no Resurrection, then the Church was founded on nothing and we believe in a sham. I believe that nothing matters more than whether or not the Resurrection was an actual historical event.

Likewise, if the Exodus story were false, I would argue that Exodus has a similar basis for Judaism. If Yahweh really had not revealed Himself in the burning bush, then Judaism would be false and even the Sacred Name of Yahweh wouldn’t really be sacred because it’s just made up.

So I believe that just as without Easter we Christians would have no basis, without the Passover Judaism similarly has no basis, and I would think that nothing matters more than these events being actual, historical ones.

To me it feels that Exodus shouldn’t have been an allegorical teaching where a lesson is taught via a fairytale or parable, but rather Exodus should have been a teaching based on experience saying, “This is what really happened.” To me, it is vital that these were actual, historical events, even if some of minor details were incorrect, the general story should have actually happened. We can dismiss off the Creation narratives as an artful allegory and the story of the Ark as a Judaised version of Gilgamesh, but I believe that it’s crucial for Exodus to be literally true because it is a founding event. I can’t envision any basis whatsoever for Judaism otherwise (and I don’t mean that in an offensive way to Jews, who were proven to be the Chosen People by Christ – by reason of faith Judaism must have been true, but history should agree).

 

[onenow1]

HI, This may help ? www.1911encyclopedia.org/Book_of_Exodus

Britanica, might be a very good source over the years.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[JK8619]

There is actually quite a bit of good evidence that the Exodus did happen, it will just take you a long time to research and find good, reliable sources. It is something that I have been studying on and off in my spare time for years. I wish I would have kept a record of the better sources that I have found over the years.

One good source that may get you started in the right direction is a historical documentary called Exodus Decoded by Simcha Jacobovici. You can get the DVD through Netflix if you have that service. If not I still doubt that it would be too hard to find.

I do not think Jacobovici’s version is perfect, but it is probably one of the closest theories to what really happened. I am not sure how much you know about the Hyksos, but Jacobovici does a good job linking them to the Israelites. One thing you should realize, which is not stressed in the doc, the Israelites probably only made up a portion of the Hyksos people. Others would have included Caananites and various Africans (the Bible does say those who fled were a mixed multitude).

One reason many do not look at the Hyksos expulsion and the Israelite Exodus as the same event is because of an established timeline with little credibility. The Bible says that the Israelites built the city of Ramsees, so most people assume the Pharoah during the Exodus was Ramsees II. The city of Ramsees was originally the Hyksos capital of Avaris. It is not uncommon to use the contemporary name of a city, rather than an old one that no one remembers.

I hope you can find the DVD that I mentioned, but either way I would suggest looking into the Hyksos. There are too many connections for it to be a coincidence.

 

[TimothyH]

I would disagree with that.

With us Christians, for example, if the story of Christ never happened, then our religion is baseless and false. If there was no Resurrection, then the Church was founded on nothing and we believe in a sham. I believe that nothing matters more than whether or not the Resurrection was an actual historical event.

Likewise, if the Exodus story were false, I would argue that Exodus has a similar basis for Judaism. If Yahweh really had not revealed Himself in the burning bush, then Judaism would be false and even the Sacred Name of Yahweh wouldn’t really be sacred because it’s just made up.

So I believe that just as without Easter we Christians would have no basis, without the Passover Judaism similarly has no basis, and I would think that nothing matters more than these events being actual, historical ones.

To me it feels that Exodus shouldn’t have been an allegorical teaching where a lesson is taught via a fairytale or parable, but rather Exodus should have been a teaching based on experience saying, “This is what really happened.” To me, it is vital that these were actual, historical events, even if some of minor details were incorrect, the general story should have actually happened. We can dismiss off the Creation narratives as an artful allegory and the story of the Ark as a Judaised version of Gilgamesh, but I believe that it’s crucial for Exodus to be literally true because it is a founding event. I can’t envision any basis whatsoever for Judaism otherwise (and I don’t mean that in an offensive way to Jews, who were proven to be the Chosen People by Christ – by reason of faith Judaism must have been true, but history should agree).

You read an awful lot into my short post. I said nothing about the story of Christ never happening. I never said anything about Exodus being fable, myth or artful allegory. You are disagreeing with something I never said.

I said that the spiritual senses of scripture - allegorical (how it points us to Christ), moral (how we are to live our lives as Christians) and eschatological (how it points to Heaven, Hell and final judgement) - that these spiritual senses of scripture are more imporant than the literal senses of scripture.

The literal sense of scripture points us to the spiritual sense of scripture, and it is the spiritual sense of scripture which is most important.

Poeple who argue endlessly about whether Noah’s Ark really happened or about whether there really was a burning bush or the parting of the Red Sea miss the point. It is important that each of us get past whether we believe that the events really happened or not and instead discern what it is that God is trying to teach us about himself, about our lives as his children, and how to spend eternity with him. These are more important that whether it was an actual event or not. Whether any event in the Bible actually happened or not is really secondary to what God is trying to teach us and many stumble endlessly over this stuff without getting to what is really important.

I never said that anything in the Bible didn’t actually happen. I never said anything about Easter or Passover or the Ressurection. I happen to be pretty literalist when it comes to Old Testament miracles.

-Tim-

 

[edwest2]

What’s more important that whether it actually happened or not is what the Hebrew story teaches us about God, about Jesus, about our own lives as Christians and about Heaven and Hell.

-Tim-

Your statement is incorrect.

So, Jews who have been celebrating Passover have not been celebrating something that actually happened?

Read what our Jewish neighbors think:

jewishworldreview.com/0401/prager.exodus.html

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

You read an awful lot into my short post. I said nothing about the story of Christ never happening. I never said anything about Exodus being fable, myth or artful allegory. You are disagreeing with something I never said.

I said that the spiritual senses of scripture - allegorical (how it points us to Christ), moral (how we are to live our lives as Christians) and eschatological (how it points to Heaven, Hell and final judgement) - that these spiritual senses of scripture are more imporant than the literal senses of scripture.

The literal sense of scripture points us to the spiritual sense of scripture, and it is the spiritual sense of scripture which is most important.

Poeple who argue endlessly about whether Noah’s Ark really happened or about whether there really was a burning bush or the parting of the Red Sea miss the point. It is important that each of us get past whether we believe that the events really happened or not and instead discern what it is that God is trying to teach us about himself, about our lives as his children, and how to spend eternity with him. These are more important that whether it was an actual event or not. Whether any event in the Bible actually happened or not is really secondary to what God is trying to teach us and many stumble endlessly over this stuff without getting to what is really important.

I never said that anything in the Bible didn’t actually happen. I never said anything about Easter or Passover or the Ressurection. I happen to be pretty literalist when it comes to Old Testament miracles.

-Tim-

Please provide any Church document that makes the spiritual sense more important than the literal sense. You are wrong to think this way.

There are many senses in the Bible but you can’t paint it with such a broad brush. The works Jesus did were literal. It got to the point where he told the Pharisees: If you don’t believe me then believe the works. The Bible records things God actually did.

Peace,
Ed

 

[TimothyH]

Please provide any Church document that makes the spiritual sense more important than the literal sense. You are wrong to think this way.

There are many senses in the Bible but you can’t paint it with such a broad brush. The works Jesus did were literal. It got to the point where he told the Pharisees: If you don’t believe me then believe the works. The Bible records things God actually did.

Peace,
Ed

If you know what Jesus did, but do not understand what it means in terms of how to apply it to your life as a Christian, then you have missed something incredibly important.

That’s all I’m saying. Nothing more. I think you are overreacting to my comments a little.

-Tim-

 

[PazzoGrande]

You read an awful lot into my short post. I said nothing about the story of Christ never happening. I never said anything about Exodus being fable, myth or artful allegory. You are disagreeing with something I never said.

I said that the spiritual senses of scripture - allegorical (how it points us to Christ), moral (how we are to live our lives as Christians) and eschatological (how it points to Heaven, Hell and final judgement) - that these spiritual senses of scripture are more imporant than the literal senses of scripture.

The literal sense of scripture points us to the spiritual sense of scripture, and it is the spiritual sense of scripture which is most important.

Poeple who argue endlessly about whether Noah’s Ark really happened or about whether there really was a burning bush or the parting of the Red Sea miss the point. It is important that each of us get past whether we believe that the events really happened or not and instead discern what it is that God is trying to teach us about himself, about our lives as his children, and how to spend eternity with him. These are more important that whether it was an actual event or not. Whether any event in the Bible actually happened or not is really secondary to what God is trying to teach us and many stumble endlessly over this stuff without getting to what is really important.

I never said that anything in the Bible didn’t actually happen. I never said anything about Easter or Passover or the Ressurection. I happen to be pretty literalist when it comes to Old Testament miracles.

-Tim-

Thanks for the response. I’m afraid that I think you misunderstood what I meant.

Whereas you said, “What’s more important that whether it actually happened or not is what the Hebrew story teaches us about God, about Jesus, about our own lives as Christians and about Heaven and Hell,” I would say that there really is *nothing *more important than whether or not it actually happened.

I was using the Christian basis on the Resurrection as a comparison on the importance of those founding events, not implying that you denied that it did happen. For us Christians, if the Resurrection is a central founding event, then for Jews Exodus must be a central founding event.

Therefore, it is critical and vital that these were actual historical events. Nothing matters more than that.

 

[TimothyH]

Thanks for the response. I’m afraid that I think you misunderstood what I meant.

Whereas you said, “What’s more important that whether it actually happened or not is what the Hebrew story teaches us about God, about Jesus, about our own lives as Christians and about Heaven and Hell,” I would say that there really is *nothing *more important than whether or not it actually happened.

I was using the Christian basis on the Resurrection as a comparison on the importance of those founding events, not implying that you denied that it did happen. For us Christians, if the Resurrection is a central founding event, then for Jews Exodus must be a central founding event.

Therefore, it is critical and vital that these were actual historical events. Nothing matters more than that.

I see your point.

Yes, creation happened. The incarnation happened. The crucifixion happened, and the resurrection happened.

I don’t deny that.

Let’s move on.

-Tim-

 

[zz912]

There is actually quite a bit of good evidence that the Exodus did happen, it will just take you a long time to research and find good, reliable sources. It is something that I have been studying on and off in my spare time for years. I wish I would have kept a record of the better sources that I have found over the years.

One good source that may get you started in the right direction is a historical documentary called Exodus Decoded by Simcha Jacobovici. You can get the DVD through Netflix if you have that service. If not I still doubt that it would be too hard to find.

I do not think Jacobovici’s version is perfect, but it is probably one of the closest theories to what really happened. I am not sure how much you know about the Hyksos, but Jacobovici does a good job linking them to the Israelites. One thing you should realize, which is not stressed in the doc, the Israelites probably only made up a portion of the Hyksos people. Others would have included Caananites and various Africans (the Bible does say those who fled were a mixed multitude).

One reason many do not look at the Hyksos expulsion and the Israelite Exodus as the same event is because of an established timeline with little credibility. The Bible says that the Israelites built the city of Ramsees, so most people assume the Pharoah during the Exodus was Ramsees II. The city of Ramsees was originally the Hyksos capital of Avaris. It is not uncommon to use the contemporary name of a city, rather than an old one that no one remembers.

I hope you can find the DVD that I mentioned, but either way I would suggest looking into the Hyksos. There are too many connections for it to be a coincidence.

This is bad advice. Anyone seriously wanting to research history would do well to avoid Jacobovici. He is a hack. It seems every Easter we get a new “documentary” from him that claims to disprove some portion of Christianity. And as soon as his information is out there for longer than 15 minutes, it is disproven as laughably wrong. But he doesn’t care, because his aim is not the truth or history, it is to cause weak Christians to question their belief in God.

To the OP, it is very difficult to “prove” the events of Exodus. But they aren’t that out there in terms of level of miracle. Plagues, darkness, and other things have been noticed in nature. The miracle was that they were commanded upon the order of a servant of God. And the parting of the Red Sea is a phenomenon that happens from time to time. Notice in the text that it was a strong east wind that drove all night and drove the water back.

Exodus 14:21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD drove back the sea with a strong east wind all night long and turned the sea into dry ground. The waters were split, 22 so that the Israelites entered into the midst of the sea on dry land, with the water as a wall to their right and to their left

Again, this has been witnessed in our day. The miracle was the commanding of these events in successive order by the prophet of God (Moses).

 

[JK8619]

This is bad advice. Anyone seriously wanting to research history would do well to avoid Jacobovici. He is a hack. It seems every Easter we get a new “documentary” from him that claims to disprove some portion of Christianity. And as soon as his information is out there for longer than 15 minutes, it is disproven as laughably wrong. But he doesn’t care, because his aim is not the truth or history, it is to cause weak Christians to question their belief in God.

To the OP, it is very difficult to “prove” the events of Exodus. But they aren’t that out there in terms of level of miracle. Plagues, darkness, and other things have been noticed in nature. The miracle was that they were commanded upon the order of a servant of God. And the parting of the Red Sea is a phenomenon that happens from time to time. Notice in the text that it was a strong east wind that drove all night and drove the water back.

Exodus 14:21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD drove back the sea with a strong east wind all night long and turned the sea into dry ground. The waters were split, 22 so that the Israelites entered into the midst of the sea on dry land, with the water as a wall to their right and to their left

Again, this has been witnessed in our day. The miracle was the commanding of these events in successive order by the prophet of God (Moses).

Jacobovici has put out a lot of junk, but Exodus Decoded does contain quite a bit of good information. As I said, I don’t go along with his entire theory. His Explanation of the miracles is not that impressive, but if you want to get information on the connection between the Hyksos and the Israelites, it is a good place to start. I would agree that in this particular documentary the Hyksos/Israelite connection is the only worthwhile theory that he presents, but once you understand this connection you can find lots of other good info on the subject. I probably should have been more clear that Jacobovici is not the best source for Biblical information, but in this case it is well worth listening to what he has to say.

If you look at the similarities between the Hyksos Expulsion and the Israelite Exodus, it is rather clear that the two were the same event. Jacobovici does not cover it perfectly, but it is enough to point a person in the right direction. There will probably never be definitive proof for the existence of Moses, but the Exodus, I believe is provable. Maybe not Every biblical detail, such as the Miracles (i.e. plagues), but the general story I think can be verified.

Interestingly, although I have never seen any real evidence for the existence of Moses outside the Bible, their is a good bit of evidence for the existence of Joseph (brother of Levi). Some of the evidence that I have found has come from people who generally trash Judeo-Christian beliefs. Sometimes you can get good bits of evidence from surprising sources.

 

[Hunter24]

I’m usualy a pretty big critic of the bibles historical accuracy (or atleast the position that it is 100% accurate in all respects). However Exodus is actualy rather well documented, and the revolt and exodus of the Jewish slaves in Egypt almost certainly happened. The miracles are debateable but even the famously self flatering Egyptians wrote of it.

 

[PazzoGrande]

I’m usualy a pretty big critic of the bibles historical accuracy (or atleast the position that it is 100% accurate in all respects). However Exodus is actualy rather well documented, and the revolt and exodus of the Jewish slaves in Egypt almost certainly happened. The miracles are debateable but even the famously self flatering Egyptians wrote of it.

That’s fascinating. Could you point to any sources I could read?

(Btw us Catholics don’t hold that it’s literallly accurate in all respects either; I feel sorry for the denominations who reject some basic scientific principles because it clashes with what they believe to much, like evolution and all, so you have an “either/or” situation with science and religion rather than a “both” situation. I think it hurts all of Christianity when people are *way *too literal with it.)

 

[Hunter24]

That’s fascinating. Could you point to any sources I could read?

(Btw us Catholics don’t hold that it’s literallly accurate in all respects either; I feel sorry for the denominations who reject some basic scientific principles because it clashes with what they believe to much, like evolution and all, so you have an “either/or” situation with science and religion rather than a “both” situation. I think it hurts all of Christianity when people are *way *too literal with it.)

Yes I was raised catholic and went to catholic school, my senior year we had to watch videos whic first tried to prove a God initiated big bang and theistic evolution, and then moved to historical evidence for the bible. I don’t remember the exact sources quoted in the videos but I will look for them, they were Egyptian references to “the nomads of the Habiru” and spoke of their fifty or so years of wandering after leaving Egypt. They also offered archeological evidence for Jerico, as well as Egyptian diplomatic writing which hold Isreal as being the major power in Palestine and thus important to be