Proving the Existence of God

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BTW I am aware of quantum mysticism most of it is a result of a lack of understanding. I am not talking about all of that. There is no reason to conclude that it is not the observation that is causing the change.

There is no reason to conclude for a fact that it is.

There is also only scriptural reason to conclude that time even exists at all. God is the only one that is without time.
 
ManRay said:
Wow - now you are telling me what I believe in. I’m talking about written history - Sure text tells us the Yahweh existed forever…cmon. I just picked two. please spare me. Zoroastrianism textually isn’t as old but much evidence that existed way before - some things just don’t physically survive.
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“The religion was founded by Zarathushtra in Persia – modern-day Iran. It may have been the world’s first monotheistic faith. It was once the religion of the Persian empire, but has since been reduced in numbers to fewer than 200,000 today. With the exception of religious conservatives, most religious historians believe the the Jewish, Christian and Muslim beliefs concerning God and Satan, the soul, heaven and hell, the virgin birth of the savior, the slaughter of the innocents, resurrection, the final judgment, etc. were all derived from Zoroastrianism.”

This was chosen at random? Hinduism at random? Paganism would have easily made a better argument.

You chose these two because they believe in 1 benevolent God. You do too. Now you just have to accept it.

I didn’t tell you your belief until now btw. Before it was an assumption. It was slightly less than telling you.

Edit: BTW with “the exception of religious conservatives” = without religious people involved it is all atheists trying to make an invalid point valid.
 
atheistgirl said:
I think the simple truth is no one can prove God exists, no one can prove God doesn’t exist.
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If you can prove that anything exists at all, you have proved that God exists – God is the very act of being.

To answer the article you posted:
If there is no time between a cause and its effect, then a self-caused entity would not have to exist before it causes itself to exist. Aquinas’s conclusion therefore does not follow unless one rules out instantaneous causation.
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The notion of instantaneous causation is absurd. An effect is, by definition, consequential to a cause. Remove the notion of sequence (“if there is no time between…”) and it is no longer a matter of cause and effect but instead a matter of self-subsistence, which is proper to God.
Aquinas therefore has failed to show that the chain of causation must have had a beginning.
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Conversely, it is this author which has failed to demonstrate that the notion of infinite regress is sane. Where an infinite quantity is represented by i and integer n is of a quantity less than i, i - n = i. Where event e is preceded by i amount of sequential events of cause and effect, event e would never occur as the sequence of i is indiminishable.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
There are many " proofs " for the existence of God. None of them are so full proof that no one can object to them. They are more like " convergent and convincing arguments ( Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 31).
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To be clear, i hope by “objection” you only mean that it is not self evident that the arguments are correct?

It is evident to me at least, that once you understand the underlying metaphysical principles of the five ways, and how those principles reflect the nature of reality as an act, you will know that the arguments are irrefutable and provide **certain knowledge **of the existence of an intelligent unmoved mover.

The reason why people reject the five ways is because they don’t understand or know the metaphysics that justifies the conclusion; and you cannot learn the metaphysics simply by reading the five ways. Neither can one hope to convince somebody that the five ways are correct unless the person you are trying to convince already interprets and understands reality in a metaphysical sense. Once a person understands metaphysics and agrees with it, they will know that you cannot reject a metaphysical argument without rejecting the act of reality itself. This is the power of a metaphysical argument. It is not a probabilistic Argument.

The five ways taken apart from metaphysics is easy to understand and easy to refute. However the metaphysics is not easy to understand and it is impossible to refute.
 
ivebeenshown said:
The notion of instantaneous causation is absurd.
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No more absurd than a being that was not created and has been in existence for all eternity 🤷

And even if it could ever be shown without a doubt such a being exists, which it can’t, you’ve got all your work ahead of you to make the leap from there, to the God of Christianity, specifically the God of Catholicism.

Sarah x 🙂
 
atheistgirl said:
No more absurd than a being that was not created and has been in existence for all eternity 🤷

And even if it could ever be shown without a doubt such a being exists, which it can’t, you’ve got all your work ahead of you to make the leap from there, to the God of Christianity, specifically the God of Catholicism.

Sarah x 🙂
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The God of Catholicism is the God of Christianity. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

God is not a being in that sense. Since there is nothing in existence that is perfect except God, you cannot compare Him to anything else.

Since God is without time, for Him to create himself would be a small task, but I doubt a human mind can actually comprehend how God came to be when God always was because we are stuck in time.

It is like a 2d object trying to understand a 3d environment only infinitely more pointless than that. It would be easier for you to look at a 4 dimensional object and not die (which, from what I understand, is impossible.
 
FaithInTheSon said:
Since God is without time, for Him to create himself would be a small task, but I doubt a human mind can actually comprehend how God came to be when God always was because we are stuck in time.
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God cannot create himself.
 
Uhmmm whaaaa? Dude - I’m like a super Christian. When I wake up in the morning atheist children throughout America start crying uncontrollably. When I put on my jeans one leg at a time, it’s as if the very waves of the ocean are crashing against the beaches of secularism. I need four thrones. One for each leg, and one for each hemisphere of my brain. My skull is packed with so much divine brain juice that my neck becomes weak, and fatigued at times. People actually feel sorry for my neck. It’s true. Sometimes I climb upon my bicycle - which I call “rolling head wound” and cruise around crushing weak secular arguments while eating doritos, and ring dings… I enjoy driving my enemies before me and hearing the lamentations of their women. I enjoy triumph. I also like puppies. To eat. Because I’ve learned through my thousand plus years upon this earth that puppies are indeed evil.
FaithInTheSon said:
“The religion was founded by Zarathushtra in Persia – modern-day Iran. It may have been the world’s first monotheistic faith. It was once the religion of the Persian empire, but has since been reduced in numbers to fewer than 200,000 today. With the exception of religious conservatives, most religious historians believe the the Jewish, Christian and Muslim beliefs concerning God and Satan, the soul, heaven and hell, the virgin birth of the savior, the slaughter of the innocents, resurrection, the final judgment, etc. were all derived from Zoroastrianism.”

This was chosen at random? Hinduism at random? Paganism would have easily made a better argument.

You chose these two because they believe in 1 benevolent God. You do too. Now you just have to accept it.

I didn’t tell you your belief until now btw. Before it was an assumption. It was slightly less than telling you.

Edit: BTW with “the exception of religious conservatives” = without religious people involved it is all atheists trying to make an invalid point valid.
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atheistgirl said:
No more absurd than a being that was not created and has been in existence for all eternity 🤷
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We all participate in the act of being, and it is upon this act which all things depend for their existence. There is no other thing which could have a place before the act of being in a causal sequence, as it would have to first be, which would already render it consequential to the act of being. As it is absurd for an effect to have caused itself, and as nothing could precede the act of being, it stands that the act of being is itself without cause.

I have demonstrated the absurdity of the notion of a ‘self-caused effect’ – causality is sequential, and where there is no difference there is no sequence. Would you care to demonstrate the absurdity of a being without cause?
 
ManRay said:
Uhmmm whaaaa? Dude - I’m like a super Christian. When I wake up in the morning atheist children throughout America start crying uncontrollably. When I put on my jeans one leg at a time, it’s as if the very waves of the ocean are crashing against the beaches of secularism. I need four thrones. One for each leg, and one for each hemisphere of my brain. My skull is packed with so much divine brain juice that my neck becomes weak, and fatigued at times. People actually feel sorry for my neck. It’s true. Sometimes I climb upon my bicycle - which I call “rolling head wound” and cruise around crushing weak secular arguments while eating doritos, and ring dings… I enjoy driving my enemies before me and hearing the lamentations of their women. I enjoy triumph. I also like puppies. To eat. Because I’ve learned through my thousand plus years upon this earth that puppies are indeed evil.
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Really? Your a smart guy doesn’t that whole post make you feel like you just had no good argument for that logic.
I never said you were ready to accept Christ. I said I know that you know in your heart a one true benevolent God exists.

After reading this your pride will swell and you will go to reply. Your reply will say anything other than the truth which is that what I told you rings true to you.I will not respond and might not even read. After all, you have shown me there is no point talking to you.

It rang true do yourself a favor and don’t ignore it.
 
FaithInTheSon said:
Really? Your a smart guy doesn’t that whole post make you feel like you just had no good argument for that logic.
I never said you were ready to accept Christ. I said I know that you know in your heart a one true benevolent God exists.

After reading this your pride will swell and you will go to reply. Your reply will say anything other than the truth which is that what I told you rings true to you.I will not respond and might not even read. After all, you have shown me there is no point talking to you.

It rang true do yourself a favor and don’t ignore it.
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I just thought it was funny…goodness. I don’t want to get into debates with people who profess to know what is going on in my heart. Are you gearing up for Pope tryouts or something?..kidddding!! Seriously it would lend to much credibility to whatever it is you are talking about, and is more than a little creepy.
 
FaithInTheSon said:
Whether or not that is the case, my point still holds water.
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You are right in that we cannot fully comprehend the essence of God as we stand, though as St. Paul has stated, we will come to this understanding should we prevail in the grace of God.
 
ManRay said:
I just thought it was funny…goodness. I don’t want to get into debates with people who profess to know what is going on in my heart. Are you gearing up for Pope tryouts or something?..kidddding!! Seriously it would lend to much credibility to whatever it is you are talking about, and is more than a little creepy.
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I retract that statement as it is invalid. I do not know what is in your heart only God does.

It is what I think and a logical conclusion.

Okay this time I won’t reply again. I did enjoy our conversation though.
 
FaithInTheSon said:
I retract that statement as it is invalid. I do not know what is in your heart only God does.

It is what I think and a logical conclusion.

Okay this time I won’t reply again. I did enjoy our conversation though.
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This is your quote pal…

" I said I know that you know in your heart a one true benevolent God exists."

So you apparently do know what is in my heart if you know what I know. Sheesh - laaaaame!!!

Wow…you are like really impressive…like totally. Thanx for retracting my statement - as if that makes sense. Are you on Acid?

Wait are you actually retracting your own statement!!?? - nevermind - this calls for celebration - someone on these boards actually admitted an error!! Unbelievable!!
 
ManRay said:
This is your quote pal…

" I said I know that you know in your heart a one true benevolent God exists."

So you apparently do know what is in my heart if you know what I know. Sheesh - laaaaame!!!

Wow…you are like really impressive…like totally. Thanx for retracting my statement - as if that makes sense. Are you on Acid?

Wait are you actually retracting your own statement!!?? - nevermind - this calls for celebration - someone on these boards actually admitted an error!! Unbelievable!!
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Now it looks like you’re trying to incite inhospitality by your very mean-spirited inhospitality.

God bless,
jd
 
FaithInTheSon said:
I retract that statement as it is invalid. I do not know what is in your heart only God does.

It is what I think and a logical conclusion.
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I think Christians are the most people on earth who have very limited (or none) knowledge about supernatural phenomena.
I had someone (I knew him) read my mind. He was in the next room separated by window, about 50 feet away, smiled at me after he repeated synchronously what I was singing in my mind (without any voice.) Not only once, he also laughed inside my head. No matter you believe it or not, it really happened, I witnessed it myself. Would you call him God? He knew what was actually in my hearth.

I’d suggest you to widen your perspective, go around the globe to see different things including supernatural phenomena, so that you won’t always attribute everything to God.
 
JDaniel said:
Now it looks like you’re trying to incite inhospitality by your very mean-spirited inhospitality.

God bless,
jd
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Maybe you should go back and read the things this guy has said to me - if you think it started with my last post - try again.
 
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