Proving the Existence of God

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There is a popular book on sale that proposes to prove the existence of God. Yet one of the main arguments is that we live in a finite universe that had a beginning, therefore God exists ( a brief summary ). That is a serious error. Thomas Aquinas demonstrated, in the thirteenth century, that we cannot prove the universe had a beginning in time, we must accept that on Faith alone. Therefore his famous Five Ways argue from the position that the universe always existed ( even though it is finite in detail and contingent ), and he argued quite successfully.

This is not to say that there is nothing of value in the book. It is simply to say that it fails on one of its fundamental tenants. I did not mention the title because it may make good friends a little peeved. Buy it and read it, just keep in mind that any cosmological argument that assumes the universe had an absolute beginning, fails on that point, because it cannot be proven that the universe had a unique beginning in time. That is why the Church has declared De Fide that it did indeed have a unique beginning in time, and from nothing, by the Power of God’s Will…

Linsu2nd
 
St. Thomas DID believe the universe had a beginning in time, and this was one of the key proofs of God’s existence. Paraphrasing “If ever there was a time when there was nothing we would have nothing now. So there was always something, and that something is what we call God!”.

So the universe had a beginning in time, since it was created ex nihil (out of nothing) by the eternal Creator.
 
it cannot be proven that the universe had a unique beginning in time.
:crying: That again! :banghead:

Nor can it be proved that the universe exists now! :bigyikes: It might be a figment of my imagination.

But we must use our reason. 😃
 
Proof of God can only be achieved through faith and reason unless you happen to be one of the few who are given visions of some sort. There’s no scientific test to prove God.
 
:crying: That again! :banghead:

Nor can it be proved that the universe exists now! :bigyikes: It might be a figment of my imagination.

But we must use our reason. 😃
I always thought that the “you cannot prove the universe exists” arguement to be foolish. The arguer usually says “it is all just a figment of your imagination”, which is admitting “something” exists, so, the arguement is self-contradicting.

Back to the OP, I thought St TA was a pioneer in the proof that since the universe is finite (even in the eyes of many scientisits) that something outside of the universe (something infinite) must have created universe.
 
There is a popular book on sale that proposes to prove the existence of God. Yet one of the main arguments is that we live in a finite universe that had a beginning, therefore God exists ( a brief summary ). That is a serious error. Thomas Aquinas demonstrated, in the thirteenth century, that we cannot prove the universe had a beginning in time, we must accept that on Faith alone. Therefore his famous Five Ways argue from the position that the universe always existed ( even though it is finite in detail and contingent ), and he argued quite successfully.

This is not to say that there is nothing of value in the book. It is simply to say that it fails on one of its fundamental tenants. I did not mention the title because it may make good friends a little peeved. Buy it and read it, just keep in mind that any cosmological argument that assumes the universe had an absolute beginning, fails on that point, because it cannot be proven that the universe had a unique beginning in time. That is why the Church has declared De Fide that it did indeed have a unique beginning in time, and from nothing, by the Power of God’s Will…

Linsu2nd
This is one point where I disagree with Aquinas. There is a very simple way of proving the impossibility of an infinite past. It can be most simply expounded as such: if the universe is infinite then the number of past moments is infinite, which means we cannot have arrived at the present moment yet, because there are an infinite amount of moments that must be traversed in order to get here. As there is no end to infinity, we would never make it.
 
There is a popular book on sale that proposes to prove the existence of God. Yet one of the main arguments is that we live in a finite universe that had a beginning, therefore God exists ( a brief summary ). That is a serious error. **Thomas Aquinas demonstrated, in the thirteenth century, that we cannot prove the universe had a beginning in time, we must accept that on Faith alone. **Therefore his famous Five Ways argue from the position that the universe always existed ( even though it is finite in detail and contingent ), and he argued quite successfully.

This is not to say that there is nothing of value in the book. It is simply to say that it fails on one of its fundamental tenants. I did not mention the title because it may make good friends a little peeved. Buy it and read it, just keep in mind that any cosmological argument that assumes the universe had an absolute beginning, fails on that point, because it cannot be proven that the universe had a unique beginning in time. That is why the Church has declared De Fide that it did indeed have a unique beginning in time, and from nothing, by the Power of God’s Will…

Linsu2nd
I am not clear that Thomas held that a finite universe could not be proved. What he did claim was that the five ways do not depend upon a finite universe, because even an infinitely long contingent chain of events is still contingent - as a chain - on some non-contingent explanation. So that question, he pointed out, is irrelevant to his argument.

He allowed that the universe could be finite and could even be proved to be so.

Furthermore, Big Bang cosmology has pretty much answered the question, so an argument for God that depends upon a finite universe has scientific support for that premise.

I am not clear how a finite universe weakens Aquinas’ argument nor any version of the cosmological argument in any way because
  1. Aquinas’ argument requires neither an infinite nor a finite universe, logically speaking.
  2. A form of the cosmological argument that does logically require a finite universe has support from modern cosmology.
So what’s the problem?
 
I am not clear that Thomas held that a finite universe could not be proved. What he did claim was that the five ways do not depend upon a finite universe, because even an infinitely long contingent chain of events is still contingent - as a chain - on some non-contingent explanation. So that question, he pointed out, is irrelevant to his argument.

He allowed that the universe could be finite and could even be proved to be so.

Furthermore, Big Bang cosmology has pretty much answered the question, so an argument for God that depends upon a finite universe has scientific support for that premise.

I am not clear how a finite universe weakens Aquinas’ argument nor any version of the cosmological argument in any way because
  1. Aquinas’ argument requires neither an infinite nor a finite universe, logically speaking.
  2. A form of the cosmological argument that does logically require a finite universe has support from modern cosmology.
So what’s the problem?
👍

If I am not mistaken, he did believe that it could not be logically demonstrated that the universe was finite, but you are correct in that the question of the universe’s finitude or infinity is completely irrelevant to his arguments.
 
I don’t see a huge issue with arguing inductively vis-a-vis the beginning of the universe. I tend to be more skeptical of philosophical arguments against an infinite past, so I find Aquinas’s First and Second Ways to be formally more sound. It’s an insuperable fact that, if the universe were finite in the past and we had evidence of its beginning (say, of the Big Bang), we could not certainly conclude that it was the beginning.
This is one point where I disagree with Aquinas. There is a very simple way of proving the impossibility of an infinite past. It can be most simply expounded as such: if the universe is infinite then the number of past moments is infinite, which means we cannot have arrived at the present moment yet, because there are an infinite amount of moments that must be traversed in order to get here. As there is no end to infinity, we would never make it.
A similar argument I’ve seen given for this (by Alexander Pruss) is that you could also have an infinite number of events on an open interval, and such events would be isomorphic to an infinite past. Yet our intuitions seem to tell us that an infinite series of events on an open interval would nevertheless require a cause external to them. The difference seems to be that there is a lower bound to the times on the open interval, but it’s not exactly clear why the lack of a lower bound should add to the coherence of an infinite past.
 
Thomas discusses the question of the the world’s duration in S.T., Part 1, Ques 46 among other places. His opinion was that a beginning to the universe could not be demonstrated, therefore he said that this is an article of Faith. My whole point is that any argument which begins by assuming the universe had an absolute beginning is doomed to failure. So a book which assumes this will not be very productive from that point of view. However, the book probably has other good points. I won’t debate the point myself since Thomas has already done that.

Linus2nd
 
This is one point where I disagree with Aquinas. There is a very simple way of proving the impossibility of an infinite past. It can be most simply expounded as such: if the universe is infinite then the number of past moments is infinite, which means we cannot have arrived at the present moment yet, because there are an infinite amount of moments that must be traversed in order to get here. As there is no end to infinity, we would never make it.
This argument, or something very like it, is addressed in the Summa Contra Gentiles Ch 38 [4]
[4] Also, an infinite number of things cannot be traversed. But, if the world had always existed, an infinite number of things would have now been traversed, for what is past is passed by; and if the world always existed, then there are an infinite number of past days or revolutions of the sun.
He seems to dismiss the argument, however, in [11] though not a clear way (not to me anyway,) but somewhat more directly in [12], though, again, not conclusively, although he admits [8] that arguments against the eternal existence of the universe, similar to the one you outline above have some plausibility.
[8] Now, these arguments, though not devoid of probability, lack absolute and necessary conclusiveness. Hence it is sufficient to deal with them quite briefly, lest the Catholic faith might appear to be founded on ineffectual reasonings, and not, as it is, on the most solid teaching of God. It would seem fitting, then, to state how these arguments are countered by the partisans of the doctrine of the world’s eternity.
[11] Nor is the third argument cogent. For, although the infinite does not exist actually and all at once, it can exist successively. For, so considered, any infinite is finite. Therefore, being finite, any single one of the preceding solar revolutions could be completed; but if, on the assumption of the world’s eternity, all of them are thought of as existing simultaneously, then there would be no question of a first one, am, therefore, of a passing through them, for, unless there we two extremes, no transition is possible.
[12] The fourth argument is weak. For there is no reason why an addition should not be made to the infinite on that side of it which is finite. Now, from the supposition of the eternity of time it follows that time is infinite in relation to the prior but finite in relation to the posterior; for the present is the terminal point of the past.
 
There is a popular book on sale that proposes to prove the existence of God. Yet one of the main arguments is that we live in a finite universe that had a beginning, therefore God exists ( a brief summary ). That is a serious error. Thomas Aquinas demonstrated, in the thirteenth century, that we cannot prove the universe had a beginning in time, we must accept that on Faith alone. Therefore his famous Five Ways argue from the position that the universe always existed ( even though it is finite in detail and contingent ), and he argued quite successfully.

This is not to say that there is nothing of value in the book. It is simply to say that it fails on one of its fundamental tenants. I did not mention the title because it may make good friends a little peeved. Buy it and read it, just keep in mind that any cosmological argument that assumes the universe had an absolute beginning, fails on that point, because it cannot be proven that the universe had a unique beginning in time. That is why the Church has declared De Fide that it did indeed have a unique beginning in time, and from nothing, by the Power of God’s Will…

Linsu2nd
Aquinas didn’t have the help of Georg Cantor and subsequently, David Hilbert.
 
This argument, or something very like it, is addressed in the Summa Contra Gentiles Ch 38 [4]

He seems to dismiss the argument, however, in [11] though not a clear way (not to me anyway,) but somewhat more directly in [12], though, again, not conclusively, although he admits [8] that arguments against the eternal existence of the universe, similar to the one you outline above have some plausibility.
Aquinas being my patron saint and one of my all-time heroes, I am loathe to say this, but his response in [12] seems utterly nonsensical. Perhaps I’m just not understanding it properly. If you have a better grasp on it, could you perhaps expound upon it?
 
Thomas discusses the question of the the world’s duration in S.T., Part 1, Ques 46 among other places. His opinion was that a beginning to the universe could not be demonstrated, therefore he said that this is an article of Faith.
:Yes, this was Aquinas’ belief. However this does nothing to answer the criticisms of the position he presents in the Summa or to respond to other arguments for the finiteness of the Universe.
My whole point is that any argument which begins by assuming the universe had an absolute beginning is doomed to failure
Arguments that attempt to prove the existence of God from the finiteness of the Universe don’t merely assume that it had a beginning. They argue for it and attempt to show that an eternal universe results in contradictions.
 
Aquinas being my patron saint and one of my all-time heroes, I am loathe to say this, but his response in [12] seems utterly nonsensical. Perhaps I’m just not understanding it properly. If you have a better grasp on it, could you perhaps expound upon it?
I typically give him the benefit of the doubt - always. It has always been my experience that he has to be read numerous times to “get” what he means. The citation from SCG is no exception.

I do think, though that [11] might be a key
[8] Now, these arguments, though not devoid of probability, lack absolute and necessary conclusiveness. Hence it is sufficient to deal with them quite briefly, lest the Catholic faith might appear to be founded on ineffectual reasonings, and not, as it is, on the most solid teaching of God. It would seem fitting, then, to state how these arguments are countered by the partisans of the doctrine of the world’s eternity.
[11] Nor is the third argument cogent. For, although the infinite does not exist actually and all at once, it can exist successively. **For, so considered, any infinite is finite. **Therefore, being finite, any single one of the preceding solar revolutions could be completed; but if, on the assumption of the world’s eternity, all of them are thought of as existing simultaneously, then there would be no question of a first one, am, therefore, of a passing through them, for, unless there we two extremes, no transition is possible.
I suspect what he is getting at, especially with the "any infinite is finite,’ is something akin to how the numerical “distance” between any two integers has an infinite capacity to hold fractional numbers within it.

Likewise, perhaps the infinitesimally small durations possible within measurable units of time means something like any “infinite” can be held between or within finites. Is he claiming that infinite time could be contained within a finite time when viewed from a different place in the sequence?

Didn’t Hawking argue that the Big Bang “initial” moment could wrap around an infinitely decreasing curvature of time - a series of smaller and smaller intervals such that no discernible “beginning” needed to exist? I think he modeled the “beginning” of time as an infinitely decreasing curve rather than a point. Not trying to be anachronistic, but Is that what Aquinas was up to here?
[12] The fourth argument is weak. For there is no reason why an addition should not be made to the infinite on that side of it which is finite. Now, from the supposition of the eternity of time it follows that time is infinite in relation to the prior but finite in relation to the posterior; for the present is the terminal point of the past.
On third reading, it sounds like he is claiming that time is not infinite in both directions but “finite” in an indeterminate sense (in relation to the posterior) going backward from the present (the terminal point), but infinite (in relation to the prior) going forward into the future.

On a previous second reading I originally thought he was concluding the opposite. That time could be observed as finite going forward from the present terminal point, but still have been infinite in the past. This doesn’t seem to answer the traversing infinite time dilemma, though.

Yet, if the idea from [11] is brought forward, perhaps what he is getting at is something like Hawking’s idea that time may “bend” from an infinitely small succession of intervals gradually getting more to what would be increasingly greater and more detectable (finite to observation) intervals at the level of human observation.

Think of the space time continuum as a “mesh” that is gradually expanding both in terms of spatial distance and temporal duration. If, going back from the present, the space-time continuum gets progressively smaller in both space and time, then it could go backwards infinitely, but since the “duration” gets progressively smaller going backward, the “beginning” while infinitely getting “shorter” in terms of time, would not be a detectable beginning, but, relatively speaking, the infinite would be traversed in a virtual instant. Makes sense?

So when Aquinas talks about why “an addition should not be made” does he mean the kind of “progressive” change that would entail the prior time would be regressively smaller going backwards from the terminal point (present) because “addition” would occur going forward on the apparent “finite side?”

The more I think about it, the more I think it is the only reading that makes sense.
 
:Yes, this was Aquinas’ belief. However this does nothing to answer the criticisms of the position he presents in the Summa or to respond to other arguments for the finiteness of the Universe.

Arguments that attempt to prove the existence of God from the finiteness of the Universe don’t merely assume that it had a beginning. They argue for it and attempt to show that an eternal universe results in contradictions.
I confess that I have neither seen nor heard these arguments. Why not start a thread on that? It would at least inform us of the nature of the arguments and who is making them. It would be informative if not interesting and should engender a lot of comment.

Linus2nd
 
I confess that I have neither seen nor heard these arguments. Why not start a thread on that? It would at least inform us of the nature of the arguments and who is making them. It would be informative if not interesting and should engender a lot of comment.

Linus2nd
The most popular of these arguments is the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA), as defended by William Lane Craig.
He is absolutely certain the universe began to exist.

It should be noted though, that under Thomism, the universe cannot possibly have begun to exist because that would denote a changeless God beginning to do something, which is a contradictio in terminis.
It’s really simple: if the universe did begin, Thomas of Aquino was wrong and if the universe did not begin, asking why it began is meaningless.
 
The most popular of these arguments is the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA), as defended by William Lane Craig.
He is absolutely certain the universe began to exist.

It should be noted though, that under Thomism, the universe cannot possibly have begun to exist because that would denote a changeless God beginning to do something, which is a contradictio in terminis.
It’s really simple: if the universe did begin, Thomas of Aquino was wrong and if the universe did not begin, asking why it began is meaningless.
And I would say you are absolutely wrong. Thomas’ arguments answer the question of Sufficient Reason raised by Lock ( I think ). Nothing in this universe can account for its own existence, therefore the universe cannot account for its existence. Therefore there is a cause for the existence of the universe which itself is uncaused. And this we call God.

I’m not going to get into another endless debate about this since it has been hashed out time and again with you. But let’s just say, we agree to disagree.

Linus2nd
 
The most popular of these arguments is the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA), as defended by William Lane Craig.
He is absolutely certain the universe began to exist.

It should be noted though, that under Thomism, the universe cannot possibly have begun to exist because that would denote a changeless God beginning to do something, which is a contradictio in terminis.
It’s really simple: if the universe did begin, Thomas of Aquino was wrong and if the universe did not begin, asking why it began is meaningless.
This is rather a simplistic way of looking at things. The universe may simply exist eternally even though within its existence it has a beginning, duration and ending.

Similar to the way a book has its own time signature with a beginning, middle and ending that is quite independent of the “real” time outside of the book.

So the universe may exist as eternally created by God, even though the universe has a beginning, middle and ending as an independent time schema. It could, therefore, have a beginning, but also exist as an eternally enduring but created “act” of God.
 
This is rather a simplistic way of looking at things. The universe may simply exist eternally even though within its existence it has a beginning, duration and ending.Similar to the way a book has its own time signature with a beginning, middle and ending that is quite independent of the “real” time outside of the book.
That’s the B-theory of time. And Thomism is compatible with that (but Catholicsim isn’t)
So the universe may exist as eternally created by God, even though the universe has a beginning, middle and ending as an independent time schema. It could, therefore, have a beginning, but also exist as an eternally enduring but created “act” of God.
Sure, but that would open a big can of worms for traditional theism and Catholicism in particular.
 
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