Proving the Historical Accuracy of Tobit (Tobias)

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

What are you claiming to be historically inaccurate about these two stories?

From what has been stated on this thread, all of the questions about the stories have been answered and explained giving credit to them being totally, historically, 100% accurate.

 

[NotWorthy]

What are you claiming to be historically inaccurate about these two stories?

From what has been stated on this thread, all of the questions about the stories have been answered and explained giving credit to them being totally, historically, 100% accurate.

Post 53. I didn’t think that was ever clarified.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Post 53. I didn’t think that was ever clarified.

Did you read the books listed in either post 19 or 27? It was stated that the answers to the questions of the accuracy of the story of Tobit could be found in the book.

Can you please answer the questions I asked of you in post 61.

 

[NotWorthy]

Did you read the books listed in either post 19 or 27? It was stated that the answers to the questions of the accuracy of the story of Tobit could be found in the book.

No. Nor do I intend to read those books. If someone cites the books, they ought to be able to provide the gist of what the books tell us.

Can you please answer the questions I asked of you in post 61.

I’m sorry.I think I answered that in post 53.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus N Cherie
Did you read the books listed in either post 19 or 27? It was stated that the answers to the questions of the accuracy of the story of Tobit could be found in the book.

Notworthy “No. Nor do I intend to read those books. If someone cites the books, they ought to be able to provide the gist of what the books tell us.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus N Cherie
Can you please answer the questions I asked of you in post 61. Noteworthy: “I’m sorry.I think I answered that in post 53.”

Quote from Notworthy post number 53: “Then, address the point. I claimed that the setting of the story shows to be around the 7th or 8th century BC. But in the story, they talk as if Jerusalem has already fallen and the Jews were in captivity in Babylon (Tobit 13:9-12; 14-15).” end quote

Cherie" **I do not think that post 53 in any way answers my sincere question on post 61.
You accuse me of accusing you. So I ask you a simple question, so I will understand where you actually stand on the subject. You seem to be refusing to be clear on your stance. If you will not clarify, than how can you accuse me of misjudging your stance? Obviously I am unclear on your stance or I wouldn’t have asked the question. I do not want to accuse you of not believing that the story of Tobit is written in factual, historical accuracy of true events that actually happened as the Bible story says that they happened…unless, of course, my accusation would be correct.

Please clarify.**

 

[NotWorthy]

Quote from Notworthy post number 53: “Then, address the point. I claimed that the setting of the story shows to be around the 7th or 8th century BC. But in the story, they talk as if Jerusalem has already fallen and the Jews were in captivity in Babylon (Tobit 13:9-12; 14-15).” end quote

I do not think that post 53 in any way answers my sincere question on post 61.
You accuse me of accusing you. So I ask you a simple question, so I will understand where you actually stand on the subject. You seem to be refusing to be clear on your stance. If you will not clarify, than how can you accuse me of misjudging your stance? Obviously I am unclear on your stance or I wouldn’t have asked the question. I do not want to accuse you of not believing that the story of Tobit is written in factual, historical accuracy of true events that actually happened as the Bible story says that they happened…unless, of course, my accusation would be correct.

Please clarify.

I’m sorry, I thought I was explaining my thoughts. Although in many ways, its historically accurate, its not entirely accuarate. The Navarre calls it a “moralistic novel”. I equate it to the Passion of the Christ, where some artistic license took place.

I used to love to read historical novels from the Civil War and the Revolutionary War. I equate Tobit with this. This a whole bunch of real history wrapped around a not so historical story.

My reasoning comes from the fact that, although the story is based in 7th-8th century Israel, the characters talk of the fall of Jerusalem as a past event. Any Jew reading this in the 2nd to 3rd century BC would have known this and understood that this is closer to a novel.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Fictional, historical novels are my most favorite reading material. The difference between these novels…such as North and South…is that they are fiction, even though some of the events in the story are based upon actual events. The Bible is not a fictional work based upon actual events like North and South. It is completely factual except for the parables that Jesus talked of, and those things seen in visions using symbols of dragons, bears.

And it was stated that the prophets were seeing visions…not actual historical events.

The movie, Passion of the Christ, is based very closely on actual events. It was a wonderful movie…highly recommended spiritually. But in the parts that might not follow the Bible accurately, we assume that the Bible is correct, the movie is fallable.

The story of Tobit in the Bible is accurate. It is not a wonderful story based upon actual events. It is the exactly, accurate story of the exactly, accurate events.

 

[NotWorthy]

Fictional, historical novels are my most favorite reading material. The difference between these novels…such as North and South…is that they are fiction, even though some of the events in the story are based upon actual events. The Bible is not a fictional work based upon actual events like North and South. It is completely factual except for the parables that Jesus talked of, and those things seen in visions using symbols of dragons, bears.

And it was stated that the prophets were seeing visions…not actual historical events.

The movie, Passion of the Christ, is based very closely on actual events. It was a wonderful movie…highly recommended spiritually. But in the parts that might not follow the Bible accurately, we assume that the Bible is correct, the movie is fallable.

The story of Tobit in the Bible is accurate. It is not a wonderful story based upon actual events. It is the exactly, accurate story of the exactly, accurate events.

I, too, enjoyed the North and South series. I think that ignited my passion for that genre of books. By the way, Jeff and Mike Shaara and David Nevin are my two favorite authors of these types of books!

But, to your point, then can you please address the problem I had with the destruction of Jerusalem being discussed as a past event in a story that took place around 7th-8th century BC?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I didn’t read the book or books listed which have the answers to your questions. My faith in the historical accuracy of every story in the Bible has never been in doubt. I have never needed it to be proven to me.
My point is that I do not have the answers…yet the place where the answers are listed has been provided for those who are interested in those answers.

I listed the post where you can find the information. Happy hunting.

 

[NotWorthy]

I didn’t read the book or books listed which have the answers to your questions. My faith in the historical accuracy of every story in the Bible has never been in doubt. I have never needed it to be proven to me.
My point is that I do not have the answers…yet the place where the answers are listed has been provided for those who are interested in those answers.

I listed the post where you can find the information. Happy hunting.

So, I’ve got to read two books to find out why there is a discrepancy? I’m really not THAT concerned that the book is not a historical accuracy. It’s never been a problem for me.

But if someone, who has read this book and knows why there is the mis-timing of the Jerusalem captivity, then I’d be glad to find the answer.

Thank you all for your time and patience.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

You hit the nail on the head there. John Salza of ScriptureCatholic.com told me that all the alleged “historical errors” in Tobit and other Deuterocanonicals have been answered and refuted by the great theologian/commentator Cornelius a Lapide. I just have to find the work in which he refutes the claims.

What does a Lapide say about the rediscovery of Nineveh in the mid-19th century Not much, I suspect - unless he travelled in time a couple of centuries. There is not much point in quoting author X as having answered all objections to something, if after his death a massive amount of fresh material is discovered. And if new material re-opens the issue, to quote the old author as the last word on the issue is unconvincing. (Which is one of the most obvious problems with the 1859 Haydock Bible.) Besides, why study the Bible with mweans that are so badly dated, when no other intellectual activity is treated like this ? How many schools use the chemistry or history books of 1860 or 1660 ? ​

 

[Shin]

What does a Lapide say about the rediscovery of Nineveh in the mid-19th century Not much, I suspect - unless he travelled in time a couple of centuries. There is not much point in quoting author X as having answered all objections to something, if after his death a massive amount of fresh material is discovered. And if new material re-opens the issue, to quote the old author as the last word on the issue is unconvincing. (Which is one of the most obvious problems with the 1859 Haydock Bible.) Besides, why study the Bible with mweans that are so badly dated, when no other intellectual activity is treated like this ? How many schools use the chemistry or history books of 1860 or 1660 ? ​

Gee, I guess we ought to just throw out 2000 years of Church learning and history and just use the past 5 or 10.

But that would be… a heresy. Only a heretic would do that.

 

[juliamajor]

For some reason everybody ignored #30 and the 5 myths about 7 books link. The website is solid Catholic-not fanciful. Mark Shea- not exactly a wacko.Explains very well what the book is- what genre and how it effects “historicity” since it isn’t a narrative. There are many BOOKS in the Bible that are not narratives. Why people insist on making everything a narrative is beyond me.There are multiple genres in the Bible- not one. This is acknowledged by almost every biblical scholar alive- from every kind of catholic- why this is difficult to understand I don’t know. How boring it would be if it all were the same. as far as using Novella , or poems or any other form of writing -why not? Is God so powerless that he can’t inspire a person to write a story that teaches truth, is sacred and full of God’s Wisdom? Is people’s faith so weak that if it isn’t totally based on facts it negates it’s importance?Is Spiritual integrity built only on historicity? i find that very materialistic and extremely troubling.

 

[juliamajor]

Article about 5 myths about 7 books comes originally from “Envoy” magazine- a real hot bed of pernicious liberalism!!- Ha!

 

[Luke65]

For some reason everybody ignored #30 and the 5 myths about 7 books link. The website is solid Catholic-not fanciful. Mark Shea- not exactly a wacko.Explains very well what the book is- what genre and how it effects “historicity” since it isn’t a narrative. There are many BOOKS in the Bible that are not narratives. Why people insist on making everything a narrative is beyond me.There are multiple genres in the Bible- not one. This is acknowledged by almost every biblical scholar alive- from every kind of catholic- why this is difficult to understand I don’t know. How boring it would be if it all were the same. as far as using Novella , or poems or any other form of writing -why not? Is God so powerless that he can’t inspire a person to write a story that teaches truth, is sacred and full of God’s Wisdom?

Is God so powerless that He can’t take true events and teach the same?

Is people’s faith so weak that if it isn’t totally based on facts it negates it’s importance?Is Spiritual integrity built only on historicity? i find that very materialistic and extremely troubling.

Its actually because we have complete faith that when the Church Fathers were unanimous in their interpretation of Scripture its because the Holy Spirit guided them to the truth, as the Church teaches. And I’m sorry you find their interpretation “very materialistic and extremely troubling” and that its an indication that their faith was “weak”.

Article about 5 myths about 7 books comes originally from “Envoy” magazine- a real hot bed of pernicious liberalism!!- Ha!

newadvent.org/cathen/14749c.htm
“Until recently there never was question among Catholics in regard to the historicity of Tobias. It was among the historical books of the Old Testament, the Fathers had always referred to both elder and younger Tobias and to the other personages of the narratives as to facts and not to fancies.”

Denying the historicity of the Book of Tobit is by definition a liberal, modernist view. You can have it, but we’ll follow the faith of our Fathers. And we’ll find out on Judgment Day which pleases God more - faith or “reason”. Here’s a sneak peak:

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 18:1-4)

 

[NotWorthy]

For some reason everybody ignored #30 and the 5 myths about 7 books link. The website is solid Catholic-not fanciful. Mark Shea- not exactly a wacko.Explains very well what the book is- what genre and how it effects “historicity” since it isn’t a narrative. There are many BOOKS in the Bible that are not narratives. Why people insist on making everything a narrative is beyond me.There are multiple genres in the Bible- not one. This is acknowledged by almost every biblical scholar alive- from every kind of catholic- why this is difficult to understand I don’t know. How boring it would be if it all were the same. as far as using Novella , or poems or any other form of writing -why not? Is God so powerless that he can’t inspire a person to write a story that teaches truth, is sacred and full of God’s Wisdom? Is people’s faith so weak that if it isn’t totally based on facts it negates it’s importance?Is Spiritual integrity built only on historicity? i find that very materialistic and extremely troubling.

Au Contraire, the 5 myths about the 7 books is one of the reasons I’m not overly concerned about the historicity. Some of our brothers and sisters don’t realize that poetry is also a means of teaching.

 

[NotWorthy]

Is God so powerless that He can’t take true events and teach the same?

Its actually because we have complete faith that when the Church Fathers were unanimous in their interpretation of Scripture its because the Holy Spirit guided them to the truth, as the Church teaches. And I’m sorry you find their interpretation “very materialistic and extremely troubling” and that its an indication that their faith was “weak”.

newadvent.org/cathen/14749c.htm
“Until recently there never was question among Catholics in regard to the historicity of Tobias. It was among the historical books of the Old Testament, the Fathers had always referred to both elder and younger Tobias and to the other personages of the narratives as to facts and not to fancies.”

Denying the historicity of the Book of Tobit is by definition a liberal, modernist view. You can have it, but we’ll follow the faith of our Fathers. And we’ll find out on Judgment Day which pleases God more - faith or “reason”. Here’s a sneak peak:

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 18:1-4)

Can you show me where the Church Fathers listed this as Historical? I wasn’t aware that this was the case.

 

[juliamajor]

Can you show me where the Church Fathers listed this as Historical? I wasn’t aware that this was the case.

Isn’t it part of the Wisdom Books!

 

[Luke65]

Can you show me where the Church Fathers listed this as Historical? I wasn’t aware that this was the case.

I just quoted where the Catholic Encyclopedia summed up their view:

“Until recently there never was question among Catholics in regard to the historicity of Tobias. It was among the historical books of the Old Testament, the Fathers had always referred to both elder and younger Tobias and to the other personages of the narratives as to facts and not to fancies.”

And it still is:

New American Bible

The Historical Books
…
Tobit

 

[juliamajor]

I didn’t know ECF were omniscient- how could they possibly know information that was not available to them for centuries…Read Pius XII Biblical Documents- I guess he also was a modernist shill((I’ve been told that before!).