Proving the Historical Accuracy of Tobit (Tobias)

[donalddon5]

You have a good point here, Yes He could have said more than 6 days…or less, however I might be wrong but I think that the point is that most if not all people here seem to forget that "time’ as it is known is only an essence of measurable distance between one act and another by God’s cretion on this earth.
That is the very reason why God said (in the bible) “**Before **time was I AM” See the point,…God is and that remains before time because time relates to carnal being.
How do we know …because God said before time WAS…I AM.

Godbless.

I agree absolutely and like to add to your very well constructive argument that the bible is a teaching tool and that is why we have bible study.And the old covenant books was most likely use as a teaching tool by Hebrew parents for their Hebrew children. Now how many children would have understood the physics of God creation or as far as that goes how many adults? Thus the 6 days. A solid foundation about teaching the Good Lord Works.

 

[NotWorthy]

You’re right, Donald, although I think NotWorthy takes issue with the word “discount”. But there’s nothing wrong with changing names to protect the innocent! After all, St. Peter said he was writing from “Babylon”, when we know that was code for Rome. So if the sacred author said, for example, “King Nebuchadnezzar” as a code for the current king, that doesn’t make the story fictional.

What innocent? The story was written about 500 years after the event, isn’t it?

 

[littleone]

You might need to remember that satan hopes and wants ALL who relate to the CAF to argue, to put each other down, to ***FORGET THE ESSENSE of why they are on the CAF ***in the first place.
Please remember that God is LOVE and love forgives,
Love forgets about it’s point and remembers to build up others, without putting them down, and have GOD as the center NOT self’s point.

Godbless.

 

[NotWorthy]

You might need to remember that satan hopes and wants ALL who relate to the CAF to argue, to put each other down, to ***FORGET THE ESSENSE of why they are on the CAF ***in the first place.
Please remember that God is LOVE and love forgives,
Love forgets about it’s point and remembers to build up others, without putting them down, and have GOD as the center NOT self’s point.

Godbless.

Who’s been putting anyone down, recently. I thought this thread has been rather civil for the last several days, and that we’re finally making progress.

 

[Luke65]

What innocent? The story was written about 500 years after the event, isn’t it?

What story were we talking about? Oh yes, King Nebuchadnezzar in the Book of Judith. I don’t know, I was just floating a possibility, but I assume the story was written down when it happened. Maybe after Easter I’ll have some time to investigate, and I’ll report it here.

 

[NotWorthy]

What story were we talking about? Oh yes, King Nebuchadnezzar in the Book of Judith. I don’t know, I was just floating a possibility, but I assume the story was written down when it happened. Maybe after Easter I’ll have some time to investigate, and I’ll report it here.

At best guess, Judith was written around the 1st or 2nd century BC. Ninevah was destroyed in 612BC. Not much need to protect the innocent at this point!

 

[donalddon5]

At best guess, Judith was written around the 1st or 2nd century BC. Ninevah was destroyed in 612BC. Not much need to protect the innocent at this point!

Okay, let us try this argument. You are correct in the date of the destruction of Nineveh. Now for an explanation but note this is going to end with saying what was already said:

The inspired author of the book used the literary form of religious novel (as in Jonah and Judith) for the purpose of instruction and edification. There may have been a historical nucleus around which the story was composed, but this possibility has nothing to do with the teaching of the book. The seemingly historical data-names of kings, cities, etc.-are used merely as vivid details to create interest and charm.
Although the Book of Tobit is usually listed with the historical books, it more correctly stands midway between them and the wisdom literature. It contains numerous maxims like those found in the wisdom books as well as the customary sapiential themes: fidelity to the law, the intercessory function of angels, piety toward parents, the purity of marriage, reverence for the dead, and the value of almsgiving, prayer and fasting. The book makes Tobit a relative of Ahiqar, a hero of ancient Near Eastern folklore.

Note: Above quote taken from the NAB (Roman Catholic of course)

Now that being said. I still say there are no inaccuracies in the story, they are maxims and it was used to teach the Hebrews(children of God) about God. A beautiful and true story, most identical to a vision.

 

[NotWorthy]

Okay, let us try this argument. You are correct in the date of the destruction of Nineveh. Now for an explanation but note this is going to end with saying what was already said:

The inspired author of the book used the literary form of religious novel (as in Jonah and Judith) for the purpose of instruction and edification. There may have been a historical nucleus around which the story was composed, but this possibility has nothing to do with the teaching of the book. The seemingly historical data-names of kings, cities, etc.-are used merely as vivid details to create interest and charm.
Although the Book of Tobit is usually listed with the historical books, it more correctly stands midway between them and the wisdom literature. It contains numerous maxims like those found in the wisdom books as well as the customary sapiential themes: fidelity to the law, the intercessory function of angels, piety toward parents, the purity of marriage, reverence for the dead, and the value of almsgiving, prayer and fasting. The book makes Tobit a relative of Ahiqar, a hero of ancient Near Eastern folklore.

Note: Above quote taken from the NAB (Roman Catholic of course)

So, what you are saying is that the authors took Artistic License, which was a common Jewish technique?

Now that being said. I still say there are no inaccuracies in the story, they are maxims and it was used to teach the Hebrews(children of God) about God. A beautiful and true story, most identical to a vision.

I don’t think I’ve ever said there was an inaccuracy that wasn’t understood as artistic license. In other words, you’re not disagreeing with a thing that I said.

 

[donalddon5]

So, what you are saying is that the authors took Artistic License, which was a common Jewish technique?

I don’t think I’ve ever said there was an inaccuracy that wasn’t understood as artistic license. In other words, you’re not disagreeing with a thing that I said.

I certainly think that the word artistic license is not the proper way to look at it. I am not sure if it has a different meaning then the one I found at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_licence

" Artistic license often provokes controversy by offending those who resent the reinterpretation of cherished beliefs or previous works. Artists often respond to these criticisms by pointing out that their work was not intended to be a verbatim portrayal of something previous and should be judged only on artistic merit. Artistic license is a generally accepted practice, particularly when the result is widely acclaimed. William Shakespeare’s historical plays, for example, are gross distortions of historical fact but are nevertheless lauded as outstanding literary works."

My personnel thoughts is that the story was based on a Vision and not from the local legends of the time. Getting bed time here…if you reply, I will continue debating tomorrow.

 

[NotWorthy]

I certainly think that the word artistic license is not the proper way to look at it. I am not sure if it has a different meaning then the one I found at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_licence

" Artistic license often provokes controversy by offending those who resent the reinterpretation of cherished beliefs or previous works. Artists often respond to these criticisms by pointing out that their work was not intended to be a verbatim portrayal of something previous and should be judged only on artistic merit. Artistic license is a generally accepted practice, particularly when the result is widely acclaimed. William Shakespeare’s historical plays, for example, are gross distortions of historical fact but are nevertheless lauded as outstanding literary works."

My personnel thoughts is that the story was based on a Vision and not from the local legends of the time. Getting bed time here…if you reply, I will continue debating tomorrow.

If you don’t agree with the term “artistic license”, but you understand my point, then you are welcome to provide a better term. It seems like you and I agree on the the writing style of Judith and Tobit and are simply debating semantics.

 

[donalddon5]

If you don’t agree with the term “artistic license”, but you understand my point, then you are welcome to provide a better term. It seems like you and I agree on the the writing style of Judith and Tobit and are simply debating semantics.

Okay I will. I thought I have said this, the term is the Gift of the Holy Spirit call a Vision, not a copy-cat story which was taken from the surrounding environment and construed to use as a teaching tool. Now I will tell you why I think this.

While taking a Western Civilization course, I had a dream. This dream was somewhat of one that you would think of in terms of child-like dream,in other words not complicated but simple. Now if I was using psychology to explain some of it, I would say that the dream was taking from the surrounding environment because it was the answer to an extra bonus question test which I had study for in-depth. Of course, my personal belief is that psychology has nothing to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to me it is often a tool use by the enemy(Satan and his Helpers), even a lot of time by some very popular Priests.
I would have to go into some details about this event to explain its’ relationship to actually being of the Holy Spirit and not what the mind gathers from the environment. That would be to long for a forum board. Any ways my point is this: The Spirit took something
that I was familiar with and incorporated it into a dream of the events of that test question. Before you get mocking–no the Holy Spirit does not give me answers to Test questions, it has to do with much more then that. Now if I was to write this story would that in any way make the story a copy-cat or taken from others and the answer I believe is no. The Holy Spirit builds and strengthen the mind in the way that God sees fit. I believe that the Book of Tobit was an actually Vision from God.

 

[donalddon5]

If you don’t agree with the term “artistic license”, but you understand my point, then you are welcome to provide a better term. It seems like you and I agree on the the writing style of Judith and Tobit and are simply debating semantics.

Okay, You got my mind buzzing and I thought of a better example: This is an excerpt from the hand out for the class given freely at: agapebiblestudy.com/Revelation/Revelation_Menu.php
The Prophet Ezekiel is given a series of visions by God that follow almost the same chronological order as those in Revelation. One significant difference is Ezekiel’s lament over Tyre which becomes John’s lament over Jerusalem and her magnificent Temple.
The similarity’s between Daniel and Ezekiel and Revelation are indeed many but does that mean that it is not a Vision but “borrow”. I will definitely say not but are in-fact both given to each by the Holy Spirit and strengthens each other.

Guess I will give you this much on your side of the debate and that is did the Jewish people take very careful care when writing scriptures that are inspire by God and therefore confirm what they themselves know to be true by comparing their experiences with prior experiences of prophets to ensure that they are accurately witnessing to the truth in their writings? Probably.

Can you have the same visions that some of the writing of the Saints of the Holy Roman Catholic Church had or the very same experience as others had? Yes, in-deed you can.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Notworthy, just want to say that I have not forgotten about you. I haven’t had much time recently to do much more than simply add comments to some of the threads on CAF. I will get to it very soon.

 

[NotWorthy]

Notworthy, just want to say that I have not forgotten about you. I haven’t had much time recently to do much more than simply add comments to some of the threads on CAF. I will get to it very soon.

No problem. I understand that you are busy. There are times that all I have is 5 minutes to “pop in” and “pop out” of the threads, and it may look like I’m dodging. So get back with us when ever you feel you are ready! God Bless you, by the way, Jesus n Cherie!

Let us all remember to have a wonderful Easter!!!

And pray for me! I’m preparing to sing the Exultate this evening at the Vigil!!!