Proving The Resurrection By the "Minimal Facts" Approach

[pocaracas]

And YOU had an agenda when you wrote that post.

I suppose we can dismiss everything you say as false merely because you have an agenda.

Well, that was easy.

No need to even THINK about whether it was true or not, just raise a sign with the word

[SIGN]Agenda[/SIGN]

and think no more of it.

That’s even more effective than Occam’s Razor.

Unfortunately, it gets us no nearer the truth than we were before, which is concerning – that is, if you are interested in the truth and not merely having your opinion reinforced.

WoW
You’re right… we all have an agenda here.
I’d like to come closer to the truth of the matter… and I’m not ready to accept magic into that truth.

Having fun with signs
[SIGN]Minority[/SIGN]
[SIGN]Look at me[/SIGN]
[SIGN]How cool is this?![/SIGN]

 

[pocaracas]

Well, I gave you a two volume set of them and you say…

Allow me to not go out and buy that 2 volume book… is there any amputee who grows back the limb?
Or is it all internal things easily attributed to something else?

I take it there’s nothing like I ask in there…?

If you are suggesting the book, then you’ve read it. You may have some particular example in mind that goes towards one of my requirements…
That you didn’t even try is quite revealing

 

[Peter_Plato]

Indeed I don’t possess such omniscience…
I go by what I get from all over, but that is only a small subsample of all possible events.
Still, only claimed miracles… and they tend to get debunked: either due to being the product of lies, or mistaken diagnosis of the original condition, spontaneous remission, etc…
Has there ever been anyone claiming to have a leg grown back after amputation? That’s something difficult to misdiagnose, or to have some natural cause…
Although, some lizards are known to regrow parts of their bodies, so I am aware of research going into the possibility of applying the same principle to induce human limb regrowth.
Science doing what we successfully fail to see any God doing.

Wait, you just said “lizards are known to regrow parts of their bodies.” Why does that not count as “God doing?”

So what we have is science attempting to do what we see God doing?

The problem, it seems to me, is that you are arbitrarily discounting everything that God does in nature as a miracle and then demanding that he show you some other cheap trick in order to believe in “miracles.”

Why doesn’t the fact that you exist as you and are able to look through your eyeballs and see the world around you NOT count as a miracle? Seems a tad arbitrary to discount that little beauty but demand to see a spontaneous regeneration of a limb especially since you refuse to accept the spontaneous generation of a myriad of creatures from primordial soup as a miracle.

Speaking of straining out gnats but swallowing camels. It seems strange that you have room to allow miraculous camels to reside holus-bolus in your brain, but no room for those pesky gnats.

 

[pocaracas]

Wait, you just said “lizards are known to regrow parts of their bodies.” Why does that not count as “God doing?”

So what we have is science attempting to do what we see God doing?

The problem, it seems to me, is that you are arbitrarily discounting everything that God does in nature as a miracle and then demanding that he show you some other cheap trick in order to believe in “miracles.”

Why doesn’t the fact that you exist as you and are able to look through your eyeballs and see the world around you NOT count as a miracle? Seems a tad arbitrary to discount that little beauty but demand to see a spontaneous regeneration of a limb especially since you refuse to accept the spontaneous generation of a myriad of creatures from primordial soup as a miracle.

Speaking of straining out gnats but swallowing camels. It seems strange that you have room to allow miraculous camels to reside holus-bolus in your brain, but no room for those pesky gnats.

Yep… I’m sorry, I can’t attribute to a God what happens in Nature.

Lizards that regrow limbs take their sweet time to accomplish it, almost as if they’re healing the tissues, like when we regrow skin, when injured. It takes time.
Miraculous would be to do that in no time… magically. That’s a miracle! Isn’t it?

 

[PRmerger]

I have to identify who lied?

Oh, how I do love playing atheist to the atheists!

Yes. You do have to. You have to offer some sort of evidence that people lied. 1st person narrative that says he made it up. Name of a witness who said that his friend lied.

Otherwise, what you are asserting: people lied about the Resurrection of Christ is a…

wait for it…

wait for it…

faith-based assertion.

 

[pocaracas]

Oh, how I do love playing atheist to the atheists!

Yes. You do have to. You have to offer some sort of evidence that people lied. 1st person narrative that says he made it up. Name of a witness who said that his friend lied.

Otherwise, what you are asserting: people lied about the Resurrection of Christ is a…

wait for it…

wait for it…

faith-based assertion.

Well then… so be it.
Still, it posits no faith on the reality of any supernatural event or being.
It posits faith in… human nature.
We know very well that “everybody lies” (House, MD). It doesn’t take that much faith to accept that someone lied.
Again, it’s more believable that someone lied, than that magic is real.

The magic in the tale… the magic that made food multiply, that made people rise from the dead, that made a man walk on water (not run like that other lizard does), that cured incurable diseases… that magic that seems to have ceased as soon as the tale ended.
This magic is one of the most unbelievable things in the world.
Heck, aliens with high tech gear that could do those things would still be more believable.

Barring actual contemporary similar magical events, with no tech aiding in the matter, I find myself unable to acknowledge the magic in the tales as representative of reality.
Everything else is ok… may be true, may not be true… can’t tell.

Have you ever read the Jefferson bible? It’s the NT, stripped of all miracles and God. We’re left with a barebones human story of Jesus… Jefferson went the extra mile and made it so the story is in chronological order (to the best of his ability). It reads a lot like the tale of the Teacher of Righteousness.

 

[PRmerger]

Well then… so be it.

So be it?

You are a man (or woman) of faith?

You believe in something without a single shred of evidence for it: people lied about the Resurrection of Christ. And then ended up dying horrific deaths, while never recanting.

Still, it posits no faith on the reality of any supernatural event or being

This is true.

And it’s a position that begs the question.

You still have to prove that there’s no such thing as supernatural events or God.

 

[PRmerger]

Let me try to sum it up: The Universe cannot change, unless something from the outside acts upon it. The Universe is changing, so there must be something outside it imparting change from the outside of matter and energy.

This seems to fail on several levels.
One, extrapolating internal local observations to the whole Universe.
Two, the observation that things only change when caused to do so by other things isn’t wrong in Newtonian physics… but it’s a bit weirder in quantum physics, where effects such as tunneling effect are possible.

So you’re saying that the law in quantum physics: whatever changes has to have an outside force which caused this change doesn’t apply?

Three, the Universe, as a whole, may not be changing. Some astrophysicists have added up all matter, dark matter, energy and dark energy and came with the nice number Zero for their total.

Well, yeah. That’s just another way to say “matter cannot be created nor destroyed”.

But that’s a nonsequitur.

The Universe IS changing, moving.

And that means something outside of it must be causing this.

 

[PRmerger]

If I start with God, then anything is possible…

Yes. With the caveat: anything that’s logically possible is possible.

If I start with a God, then I ask: why do we have so little evidence for it?

I think you’re not looking very hard.

Why do we have various religions?

I think the existence of false religions doesn’t at all result in: therefore no religions exist.

Just as the existence of counterfeit money doesn’t mean real money is a myth.

Can’t this God be consistent across populations? Are humans so complex that he couldn’t convey a single message to all?

The single message to all came 2000 year ago, poca.

That men didn’t find it compelling is irrelevant to whether God exists or not.

Yep… the whole point of the Gospels was to show that Jesus was God… you said it!
So they had an agenda when they wrote the Gospels. Convince people that Jesus was God… people who had no access to any tomb, nor any cross… People far away from the origin of the story…

Yes. The agenda is also known as the kerygma.

What’s wrong with having an agenda?

I can grant gospels details about life in the first century as historical. Places and rulers… But the main dish? miracles and god and Jesus? I’m skeptical.

Annnnd here’s where you get circular again: “I don’t believe in miracles, therefore the Bible can’t be true.”

“The Bible isn’t true because it contains stories of miracles.”

What is also curious is how many people lived in there and also didn’t become christian… how does that happen? Why was Jerusalem still jewish after that mother of all miracles?

Yep. People can be oh-so-blind.

God is a gentleman and never forces his way into our hearts.

 

[PRmerger]

Indeed I don’t possess such omniscience…

Then, I must, with all logic and reason, reject your assertion that no miracles have ever occurred, ever, in the history of human existence.

It’s a very ignorant claim, since your life, and your experiences–including if we generously everything you’ve ever read in your entire life–is but a miniscule, subatomic!, portion of human existence.

You can’t know.

At best, you can be an agnostic about whether no miracles have ever occurred.

And if you’re an agnostic about it, then it makes your position otiose.

You simply don’t know.

 

[PRmerger]

Did you examine the evidence before or after having faith?

I had faith first, in my parents. Then in my teachers.

And then I examined the evidence myself.

Oh… I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to be that mean…

:tiphat:

It’s just that I’ve seen the some arguments against those arguments you presented and they got debunked in my mind.

#healthyskepticismaboutthat

 

[pocaracas]

So be it?

You are a man (or woman) of faith?

You believe in something without a single shred of evidence for it: people lied about the Resurrection of Christ. And then ended up dying horrific deaths, while never recanting.

Yes, so be it.
We all must believe in something. We can’t just go back in time and check it for ourselves. We must believe in what seems reasonable and reserve judgement for what doesn’t.
To me, that whole detail of magic doesn’t seem believable.

I keep telling you that the people who went through torture may, very likely, have been convinced of the tale, just as you are… but not the originators of the magical bits.

Oh, and I’m a man.

This is true.

And it’s a position that begs the question.

You still have to prove that there’s no such thing as supernatural events or God.

What?! I have to prove a negative?!
I thing you need to understand something about the burden of proof (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof).
It is generally considered impossible to prove that something does not exist, unless you confine it to some location and time where it can be analyzed.
Like “prove that there is no elephant in my living room”… simple, take a photo of an elephant anywhere… take a photo of my living room. Such a beast would never fit there, so it isn’t there. Or there’s no object in the living room’s photo that resembles the elephant object in the other photo, so the conclusion is that no such beast in my living room.

Prove that other alternative universes don’t exist. pfffffffff Impossible! I don’t see anyone even capable of testing if they do exist… how should I prove that none exist?!

Similar to proving no supernatural events or God are

• Prove that Odin, the all-father doesn’t exist.
• Prove that Amun-Ra doesn’t exist.
• Prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn’t exist.
• Prove that The Force doesn’t exist.

Any of these is impossible to prove… many more are equally impossible.

The burden is on you to prove that supernatural events or God exist. Thus far, in all my dealings with believers, none have been capable of that. As such, it is statistically unlikely that you will be successful… yet, here I am…

Randy’s five minimal facts sound good, at first light… but then seem to suffer from a few debilitating problems, when you apply extra information.

 

[PRmerger]

Yep… I’m sorry, I can’t attribute to a God what happens in Nature.

Lizards that regrow limbs take their sweet time to accomplish it, almost as if they’re healing the tissues, like when we regrow skin, when injured. It takes time.
Miraculous would be to do that in no time… magically. That’s a miracle! Isn’t it?

I think you just answered your question:

an amputee who grew back his limb would simply be explained by atheists with…the exact argument you just presented. “It’s almost as if they’ve healed themselves!”

Were this to occur, wouldn’t you simply sniff, “So? Lizards do the same thing. I don’t see any faith healers taking credit for that. So why should I believe that Faith Healer in the Sky healed your amputated limb?”

 

[PRmerger]

We know very well that “everybody lies” (House, MD).

Well, no. Not everyone lies.

That, again, requires some supernatural powers of omniscience.

Don’t you find it odd for a person who’s an atheist to keep claiming such supernatural charisms?

For you to know that “everybody lies”, you’d first have to know the Truth, in all instances, from the beginning of human existence–200,000 years ago–to today, and know every single utterance and compare it to Reality. And know that they’ve lied. Every person.

You know this?

 

[PRmerger]

It doesn’t take that much faith to accept that someone lied.

Well, if it’s just your faith-filled assertion compared to Christianity’s faith and reason-filled assertion, I’ll take the latter.

Again, it’s more believable that someone lied, than that magic is real.

You are being circular again.

“I don’t believe in miracles, therefore miracles can’t happen”.

Why don’t you step outside the circle, and then reason might be able to step in.

Have you ever read the Jefferson bible?

No.

It’s the NT, stripped of all miracles and God. We’re left with a barebones human story of Jesus… Jefferson went the extra mile and made it so the story is in chronological order (to the best of his ability). It reads a lot like the tale of the Teacher of Righteousness.

That’s as inutile a read as taking an Anatomy book and stripping it of all the Latin.

Why would anyone do that?

 

[pocaracas]

So you’re saying that the law in quantum physics: whatever changes has to have an outside force which caused this change doesn’t apply?

It’s weird… everything is measured as a probability… using a probability function.
There’s a probability that a system will evolve in a given direction, there’s another probability that it will evolve in some other direction, etc, etc…
The outside force may not be required to change a particular state of a quantum system… as far as we know, many decays are random… and nothing is acting on the decaying nucleus for it to decay.

Well, yeah. That’s just another way to say “matter cannot be created nor destroyed”.

But that’s a nonsequitur.

The Universe IS changing, moving.

And that means something outside of it must be causing this.

The Universe is changing and moving? How can you tell?
Have you seen it from the outside?

########

I think you’re not looking very hard.

Perhaps you’re right…
I await…
I know of people who waited all their lives and died waiting…
Too skeptical for our own good, others may call us…

I think the existence of false religions doesn’t at all result in: therefore no religions exist.

Indeed it doesn’t… it results in: therefore, at best, one of them is true.
Which one?
The original geographical distribution of religions suggests that they are all sparked by local phenomena, sufficiently different from each other to have a high chance at all being equally manufactured, instead of all imparted by the same God, or gods.

The single message to all came 2000 year ago, poca.

That men didn’t find it compelling is irrelevant to whether God exists or not.

Are you telling me that the message is imperfect as in incapable of convincing even the most skeptical person?

Yes. The agenda is also known as the kerygma.

What’s wrong with having an agenda?

An agenda suggests the desire to mold other people’s minds.
People controlling other people.
On the one hand, there’s this God that can do it in the best possible way to get each and every individual to acknowledge his existence… this is what he wants, is it not? This is why it’s considered very bad for someone not to believe, right? One of the few unforgivable sins, according to some. (don’t even get me talking about the muslims on this subject)
On the other hand, people telling stories to other people, writings those stories to tell even more people… and whoever believes, believes… whoever doesn’t believe, is a loss to God.
Which method seems more adequate?

Annnnd here’s where you get circular again: “I don’t believe in miracles, therefore the Bible can’t be true.”

“The Bible isn’t true because it contains stories of miracles.”

Parts of the bible can be true… most likely, many parts are true.
The parts with magic and gods in them… not so much.

Yep. People can be oh-so-blind.

God is a gentleman and never forces his way into our hearts.

Clearly, he forces nothing. Almost as if he’s not there!
However, the believers, sometimes… they try their damnest.

 

[PRmerger]

The Universe is changing and moving? How can you tell?

Science, man! Science.

livescience.com/32260-how-do-scientists-know-the-universe-is-expanding.html

 

[pocaracas]

Then, I must, with all logic and reason, reject your assertion that no miracles have ever occurred, ever, in the history of human existence.

It’s a very ignorant claim, since your life, and your experiences–including if we generously everything you’ve ever read in your entire life–is but a miniscule, subatomic!, portion of human existence.

You can’t know.

At best, you can be an agnostic about whether no miracles have ever occurred.

And if you’re an agnostic about it, then it makes your position otiose.

You simply don’t know.

I don’t know, indeed.

But also, no claim of miracles that I’ve ever seen (I’ve seen the claims, not the miracles) pans out. I extrapolate to all other claims…
Present one that’s a real knocker! go ahead… I may not be aware of it.

#############

I had faith first, in my parents. Then in my teachers.

And then I examined the evidence myself.

Faith came first… belief in the supernatural came first.
Then you examined the evidence… with a believer mindset. It’s not easy to shake out such belief when analyzing the evidence, is it?

 

[pocaracas]

I think you just answered your question:

an amputee who grew back his limb would simply be explained by atheists with…the exact argument you just presented. “It’s almost as if they’ve healed themselves!”

Were this to occur, wouldn’t you simply sniff, “So? Lizards do the same thing. I don’t see any faith healers taking credit for that. So why should I believe that Faith Healer in the Sky healed your amputated limb?”

However, many people attribute miracles to cancer healings…

#######################

Well, no. Not everyone lies.

That, again, requires some supernatural powers of omniscience.

Don’t you find it odd for a person who’s an atheist to keep claiming such supernatural charisms?

For you to know that “everybody lies”, you’d first have to know the Truth, in all instances, from the beginning of human existence–200,000 years ago–to today, and know every single utterance and compare it to Reality. And know that they’ve lied. Every person.

You know this?

Show me where the superman that has never lied is and I give you the executioner that Jesus sought to cast the first stone.

People lie. Animals lie, too. It’s in our genes.

Also, I wouldn’t call it supernatural… just a lot of healthy extrapolation. Some may be exaggerated… I’m counting on you to reign me back to the realm of reality.

 

[pocaracas]

Well, if it’s just your faith-filled assertion compared to Christianity’s faith and reason-filled assertion, I’ll take the latter.

Reason-filled? Christianity?
I once discussed with a Muslim… and then another and another… they all claimed one thing about their religion: it’s the most logical one.
No matter what I’d tell them, they held on to their belief that Islam is the most logical belief, for Allah is the most [everything good you may want to insert], or some other reason involving the Qur’an.

So tell me, how is your religion reason-filled, but theirs, the most logical, not so?

You are being circular again.

“I don’t believe in miracles, therefore miracles can’t happen”.

Why don’t you step outside the circle, and then reason might be able to step in.

I’ve never seen miracles, I’ve never seen any claim of miracles that wasn’t faulty.
In fact, I’ve seen claims of “miracles” that were flat out lies.

Why should I believe that miracles are possible?

No.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/33bce90af0d229d75db390e0d5c17930/tumblr_inline_ns88b85WPe1r79k32_500.gif

That’s as inutile a read as taking an Anatomy book and stripping it of all the Latin.

Why would anyone do that?

Why indeed… The US president Thomas Jefferson did that. Not a particularly dumb person, I reckon…

#####################

Science, man! Science.

livescience.com/32260-how-do-scientists-know-the-universe-is-expanding.html

That’s from within…
From without, it seems to be just there.

(There’s actually no way of knowing what the Universe is doing as seen from the outside - if outside the Universe even makes sense, which we don’t know it does).

If you want some entity from out of this Universe to do something with the Universe, then that something should only be reflected on the outside… no?