Proving The Resurrection By the "Minimal Facts" Approach

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Not sure why you keep pursuing this line. No-one has to specifically and with malice aforethought tell lies for all sorts of stories that bear a limited relationship to what actually happened to emerge from the most banal of events. In fact, given enough time, limited education, minimal communication (oral mostly), and rife superstition, it would be perverse to claim that it didn’t happen. Add to that a desire for a story to be told in a particular light and it is a rock solid certainty that it would happen.
So your position is that people–a whole bunch of them who claimed to have seen Him–were hallucinating.
He’s no more an atheist than anyone is a Christian who just pays lip service to his or her beliefs.
poca? Did you read this?

I suppose, then, that poca needs to dramatically decrease his 10% statistic, to exclude these snot-nosed teenagers who are “no more an atheist”.
 
Then he or she would indeed be an atheist (or, at best, an agnostic, depending on how you would answer certain questions). Atheism is the default position and it doesn’t have to be used in a positive sense (as in: ‘I have examined the evidence and have not been convinced’). If you are not brought up within a religious society then you may know about gods and be aware of various religions, but you would need to make an active decision before being able to say: ‘I believe in X’. Everyone is an atheist until they have enough information to make that decision.
Really?

So then you *do want to include the snot-nosed teenaged boy who ruins Thanksgiving with his obnoxious, "I don’t believe in that sht" comments?

And you want to include on your team all the dumb folks who haven’t examined their beliefs at all? They are atheists, too? You want to claim them for Team Atheist?
 
So your position is that people–a whole bunch of them who claimed to have seen Him–were hallucinating.

poca? Did you read this?

I suppose, then, that poca needs to dramatically decrease his 10% statistic, to exclude these snot-nosed teenagers who are “no more an atheist”.
We do know, according to psychological studies, that often “believing is seeing” takes the place of “seeing is believing.” IOW, the expectation or hope of something can lead one to perceive it.
 
We do know, according to psychological studies, that often “believing is seeing” takes the place of “seeing is believing.” IOW, the expectation or hope of something can lead one to perceive it.
I’ve never seen one instance of mass hallucination to be credible.
 
I’ve never seen one instance of mass hallucination to be credible.
It is not necessarily mass hallucination but rather individuals apart from one another who have expectations about something and therefore perceive it as real. This happens to all of us: for example, when we read a sentence which has a typo but do not notice the typo even after proofreading the text several times, because we expect to see the word spelled correctly and connect it to its surrounding context. We are literally reading something that does not exist because we expect to perceive it a certain way. Our mind corrects misspelled words, fills in missing letters and words, as well as objects with parts missing, interprets things that are upside down or tilted, judges sizes and distances according to normal expectations, perceives people’s behavior incorrectly based on preconceived ideas, and so on and so forth. There is nothing particularly abnormal about any of this: it is simply (or not so simply) the way the normal mind works.
 
Also, (just going along with your God, for now) shouldn’t some “all-good” god concern himself also with providing the maximal (ideally, ALL) good to the people? Is the suffering of tsunamis the maximum good?
Let’s look at it mathematically.

The Christian world view:

A minimal amount of suffering + infinite amount of joy in eternity = a really great deal.

The atheistic world view:

A whole lot of suffering (because that’s all you have in proportion to your 70 or so years of life) + NOTHING after you die = a really bad deal
 
There are things in the world outside our control.
Cancer is a problem in our cells which can affect some crucial bodily functions, leading to death. Sort of like a disease created by the body itself.
Some people are more prone to having it than others. Luckily, the majority is not so prone to it. 🙂

The tsunami killed them because they were in its way. Tsunamis just happen… one of them was quite famous around our parts a few centuries ago, the year was 1755… a tsunami washed up our shores… came in through Lisbon downtown… many people died… many buildings were destroyed.
Life goes on - downtown got rebuilt, this time following a plan, a geometric plan, imposing some wide streets, people resettled the area… and now it’s full of old buildings.

As for the “why”… no reason… things are as they are.
Well, then, this is no more a solution than what Believers have.

In fact, it’s a horrifically dismal solution.

Essentially, you have to tell your child that his cousin died “for no reason. Things are as they are.”

So the Problem of Evil is not only a problem for Believers, but for Atheists as well.
 
It is not necessarily mass hallucination but rather individuals apart from one another who have expectations about something and therefore perceive it as real. This happens to all of us: for example, when we read a sentence which has a typo but do not notice the typo even after proofreading the text several times, because we expect to see the word spelled correctly and connect it to its surrounding context. We are literally reading something that does not exist because we expect to perceive it a certain way. Our mind corrects misspelled words, fills in missing letters and words, as well as objects with parts missing, interprets things that are upside down or tilted, judges sizes and distances according to normal expectations, perceives people’s behavior incorrectly based on preconceived ideas, and so on and so forth. There is nothing particularly abnormal about any of this: it is simply (or not so simply) the way the normal mind works.
500 of them did this.

That really strains credulity.
 
It is not necessarily mass hallucination but rather individuals apart from one another who have expectations about something and therefore perceive it as real.
Except that these were Jewish individuals living at a time when bodily resurrection from the dead three days after dying was NOT an expectation – not even conceivable, in fact.
 
I suppose, then, that poca needs to dramatically decrease his 10% statistic, to exclude these snot-nosed teenagers who are “no more an atheist”.
Take all the snot nosed kids out of our group and remove all the lip-service Christians out of yours? You gotta deal, lady.
500 of them did this.

That really strains credulity.
No, no and no again. That’s NOT the fact of the matter. The fact of the matter is that someone WROTE that 500 people saw him. If you had separate testimonies from 500 individuals, all of whom saw something specific at different times and in different places, and those testimonies each backed the other up, then you would have a monstrously strong case.

He could have said a thousand. A million. Tens of millions. But that wouldn’t increase the chance of it actually having happened one iota.
 
Take all the snot nosed kids out of our group and remove all the lip-service Christians out of yours? You gotta deal, lady.

No, no and no again. That’s NOT the fact of the matter. The fact of the matter is that someone WROTE that 500 people saw him. If you had separate testimonies from 500 individuals, all of whom saw something specific at different times and in different places, and those testimonies each backed the other up, then you would have a monstrously strong case.
Which is precisely what Paul said he had at the time when those 500 individuals were “still alive” to provide their 500 testimonies to anyone who cared to follow up on his challenge to anyone who doubted HIS claim.
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them—though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we proclaim and so you have come to believe.
What Paul was doing was giving a list of witnesses, of whom “most were still alive” to confirm their testimony to anyone who wanted to confirm it with them directly.

Here is that list of witnesses you could have gone to to check Paul’s claim :
  1. Cephas
  2. the twelve
  3. more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time (most still alive)
  4. James
  5. all the apostles
  6. Paul himself
The fact that you, living 2000 years after the fact, can question the entire matter from YOUR perspective is neither here nor there as far as the importance and availability of those witnesses at that time with regard to confirming Paul’s claim.
 
Except that these were Jewish individuals living at a time when bodily resurrection from the dead three days after dying was NOT an expectation – not even conceivable, in fact.
Shall we say expectations or hope? How many people would want to believe that someone they loved was not dead?

And in any case, resurrections in biblical times were not exactly thin on the ground. If someone was reported to have literally come back from the dead today, the person making the claim would be ridiculed. I’m sure you can picture the headlines. Elvis still being alive is real National Enquirer headlines, but Elvis resurrected? Yeah, right.

But back then? I’m up to nine already and that doesn’t include all those saints who went walkabout after the resurecction. You couldn’t have gone anywhere in Jerusalem that night without tripping over one of the Walking Dead. And it must be true. I mean, all those people who saw them wouldn’t lie…

So…people were quite used to this happening (or at least being told that it happened) so is one more one too many?

And don’t forget, this is a guy who had performed miracles Himself. He was the Son of God no less. Not some cheap wedding entertainer. Water into wine was just for starters. This guy can cheat death. He’s already brought three back to life already. Do you really think that no-one thought He could do that Himself? Honestly? After all those saints coming back to life as well?

I suggest that if the story of the saints is accepted, then it would be too much of a stretch to suggest that people would not readily accept that Jesus had come back as well. God brought all these other guys to life, surely He did it for His son as well.

By the way, anyone other than Matthew mention these dozens of dead people visiting friends and family? It was either a huge event (resurrection not even been seen as conceivable according to some, so it must have created a hell of an uproar at the time) or it was simply taken for granted.
 
What Paul was doing was giving a list of witnesses, of whom “most were still alive” to confirm their testimony to anyone who wanted to confirm it with them directly.
My apologies. I didn’t realise there was a list of witnesses. I assumed that he just said that there were 500 or so and that there was no additional information.

And I guess Ephesus isn’t that far from Jerusalem (closer, actually than Dallas is to Chicago). So if someone actually read what Paul wrote (were there many copies?) and assuming he showed it to someone who doubted what he said and could be bothered checking one throw away line of text, all that they had to do was:

First find out who these people were (check Paul’s list I guess. Not sure why he’d feel the need to do it, but wasn’t it good of him to keep all the names and addresses of 500 hundred people for over thirty years. I haven’t got details of anyone that far back).

Then find out if they were still alive thirty or so years after the event (average life expectancy was the mid fourties at the time, so most people who would have been alive would have been teenagers). Although I guess Paul could have helped him out here as he seems to have known that ‘most were still alive’ (I wonder, in passing, how he knew this. The chances are, unless all of the 500 were young teens, that the majority of them would now be dead).

Anyway, then find out if they still lived in the same area (beats me how he’d do this. Not like you can Google the person’s address). But moving on…

Then save a up for the trip of a lifetime. Travel wasn’t cheap and most people never left their own village. No mistake about it. This was a Big Trip. Maybe Paul could lend them the money.

Then give up their job. Well, unless he was independently wealthy, in which case he wouldn’t need to. But who is going to give someone a few months off to look for a bunch of teens from thirty years back and still have the job open when he gets back?

Then leave family and friends and travel 1200kms for a couple of months just to get to the approximate area (plus 1200kms back when he’d finished, of course).

Then spend I don’t know how long looking for someone who was on Paul’s list (are you absolutely sure he had a list?).

If he finds anyone, then he can check to see if they actually knew Jesus or at least knew him by sight and could verify that they physically saw Him (over thirty years ago!) in a situation whereby it was convincing enough to be classed as being beyond reasonable doubt.

Then, eventually, when he gets back, all he needs to do is make sure that his account, whatever it might be, is treated as genuine, recorded in some way and is read by enough people and passed on as a rebuttal of that one throw away line that Paul wrote.

Piece of cake…

Is this what you want to propose, Peter? Seriously?
 
Take all the snot nosed kids out of our group and remove all the lip-service Christians out of yours? You gotta deal, lady.
I agree that we can’t call people Christian who have no idea what their beliefs are, but we can’t exclude them from being Believers.

That is, they profess belief in God and if you ask them why, they will be able to give a cogent reason for their belief–the most common one being the very logical and sensible: “Then who made the world, if there’s no God? I don’t believe in magic!”
 
Which is precisely what Paul said he had at the time when those 500 individuals were “still alive” to provide their 500 testimonies to anyone who cared to follow up on his challenge to anyone who doubted HIS claim.

What Paul was doing was giving a list of witnesses, of whom “most were still alive” to confirm their testimony to anyone who wanted to confirm it with them directly.

Here is that list of witnesses you could have gone to to check Paul’s claim :
  1. Cephas
  2. the twelve
  3. more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time (most still alive)
  4. James
  5. all the apostles
  6. Paul himself
The fact that you, living 2000 years after the fact, can question the entire matter from YOUR perspective is neither here nor there as far as the importance and availability of those witnesses at that time with regard to confirming Paul’s claim.
Is there any evidence of the Resurrection of Jesus outside of the New Testament itself, such as historical accounts of the period?
 
Except that these were Jewish individuals living at a time when bodily resurrection from the dead three days after dying was NOT an expectation – not even conceivable, in fact.
Were these people not familiar with all the miracles Jesus performed, including the raising of Lazarus from the dead?
 
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