Proving The Resurrection By the "Minimal Facts" Approach

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Let’s take one of those. That Jesus is reported to have been seen by women after his resurection.

Does the church teach that as a fact? Is it written somewhere that there is no room for doubt here? Doesn’t 500 people trump a few women? Why would Paul lie about what he said? Shouldn’t the church say that his report should be treated as much of a fact as a few women seeing Jesus?

Let me know if the church teaches this as something that must be accepted as true. Let me know that they have put their cards on the table and said: Yes, this DEFINATELY happened. And if it have (and I will admit it will come as a surprise to me), then does it teach that Paul was correct as well?
Surprise! 🙂

From our Catechism: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/641.htm

Not sure what you mean about 500 people trumping a few women?

Is this another case of an either/or you’re proposing?

Either the women or 500 witnesses? It’s impossible to have both/and?
 
If you want to assert that the Church professed that the world was created in 6 days, then let’s see where you got this info.

Please provide your source.

Was considered by whom?

If you mean by some Catholics, ok. Conceded.

But if you mean by the CC, then please provide your source, esp. if your claim is that it was “illustrated beyond any reasonable doubt.”

That should be quite easy to do.
You are really not reading what I am writing. I have continually and constantly said that Catholics (and almost all Christians) have believed that what is written in the bible is as written. As factual. They have taken it as being literal.

And AGAIN I will say that that is because the church has said that scripture is the Word Of God. Divinely Inspired. That has THERFORE led Catholics and other Christians to believe things that are not true.

No-one has said that the church teaches, for example, that the world is 6,000 years old. But the fact that they taught (and teach) that the bible is divinely inspired and The Word Of God has led to most Christians (including Augustine) to believe things that AREN’T TRUE.

Good heavens, you have his own words in an earlier post that proves that. How much more evidence do you need!
 
You are really not reading what I am writing. I have continually and constantly said that Catholics (and almost all Christians) have believed that what is written in the bible is as written. As factual. They have taken it as being literal.
Yeah, but Bradski? Remember what was the catalyst for this discussion?

You asserted that the Church had changed her teachings.

So we’re talking about the Church. Her official teachings.

Not about what Catholics believed or believe.

So don’t try to change what you originally posited.

But I think we’ve run this to the ground.

You have, I am certain, already feverishly searched the Internet for a document from the Church asserting that the earth is 6000 years old.

You couldn’t find anything.

So 'nuff said on the Church changing her teachings on the earth being 6000 years old.

Now, if you want to try a different teaching, have at it!

Bring it on. 🙂

But let’s remember we’re talking about what the Church says. Not what Catholics say.

For the Church can’t control what individual Catholics go around teaching. Heck, you can find about a million Catholics who believe that abortion is simply fine.

But it would really be a dumb dumb who says, “See? The Catholic Church doesn’t teach anymore that abortion is wrong!”

Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of Catholicism knows that the CC teaches abortion is gravely, mortally sinful.

And if someone comes here and asserts that, we all know we can dismiss this person as an uninformed rube.
 
From our Catechism: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/641.htm

Not sure what you mean about 500 people trumping a few women?
That does surprise me.

But which leads to, what for me, is a natural question: if something is in the Catechism, how much weight do you give that as compared to something which isn’t?

If you are saying that it is a fact because it’s in the catechism, then that implies that anything not included in church teaching carries less weight.

If that is not the case, then having it the catechism adds no weight to its veracity and we can treat it as any other story in scripture.
 
And AGAIN I will say that that is because the church has said that scripture is the Word Of God. Divinely Inspired. That has THERFORE led Catholics and other Christians to believe things that are not true.
Well, this is a different argument, luv.

What individual Catholics and other Christians believe because they read the Word of God and believe it’s divinely inspired is beyond the Church’s control.

There are Christians who believe that Scripture is the divinely inspired Word of God who profess that God hates homosexuals.

Are you saying that this is the Church’s fault?
 
That does surprise me.
Thank you for acknowledging, my atheist friend with integrity. :tiphat:
But which leads to, what for me, is a natural question: if something is in the Catechism, how much weight do you give that as compared to something which isn’t?
The Catechism is viewed as the “sure norm” for Catholicism.
If you are saying that it is a fact because it’s in the catechism, then that implies that anything not included in church teaching carries less weight.
If that is not the case, then having it the catechism adds no weight to its veracity and we can treat it as any other story in scripture.
Can you give an example of what you’re referring to?
 
Yeah, but Bradski? Remember what was the catalyst for this discussion?

You asserted that the Church had changed her teachings. So we’re talking about the Church. Her official teachings.

Not about what Catholics believed or believe. So don’t try to change what you originally posited.
I have spent zero time looking for Carholic teaching that describes the world being 6,000 years old. For two very good reasons:

One, I know it doesn’t exist. Or rather, I am pretty certain that it doesn’t exist.

Two, it’s not the point I am making. For the umpteenth time, the point I am making, and it’s really tempting to put this all in upper case, is that the church teaches that the bible is divinely inspired and (you will remember reading this, as I’ve written it quite a few times) THERFORE people believe things as being true which are not.

Please tell me that you understand that point.
 
Can you give an example of what you’re referring to?
Anything that’s not in the catechism.

You seem to be implying that if something is in the catechism (the church teaches it!), then it carries more weight in the veracity stakes (otherwise why bring it up).

How do we then compare that to anything that isn’t found in the catechism? Do we treat everything equally?
 
No!

Sorry for shouting…
Then let’s bring this back on point.

You originally asserted that the Church had changed her teachings. You cited the 6000 year old earth thing.

Then you changed it to Catholics believed certain things (like the earth is 6000 years old) because they were taught that the Bible is theopneustos.

And this is the Church’s fault because the Church told them that the Bible is the Word of God.

So now you’re remanding the “it’s the Church’s fault” thing?
 
Anything that’s not in the catechism.

You seem to be implying that if something is in the catechism (the church teaches it!), then it carries more weight in the veracity stakes (otherwise why bring it up).

How do we then compare that to anything that isn’t found in the catechism? Do we treat everything equally?
The Catechism is the sure norm for the faith.

I think a parallel here is appropriate: do we treat everything in this book equally:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ra3WHoXqL.AC_UL320_SR264,320.jpg

How do we compare what’s in there to anything that isn’t found in that textbook (as it relates to A and P?)

What would be your answer to that?
 
I have spent zero time looking for Carholic teaching that describes the world being 6,000 years old. For two very good reasons:

One, I know it doesn’t exist. Or rather, I am pretty certain that it doesn’t exist.

Two, it’s not the point I am making. For the umpteenth time, the point I am making, and it’s really tempting to put this all in upper case, is that the church teaches that the bible is divinely inspired and (you will remember reading this, as I’ve written it quite a few times) THERFORE people believe things as being true which are not.

Please tell me that you understand that point.
Well, I would if you would clarify this post you made:
That’s all I’m claiming. That the church’s interpretation of the time was 6 days. Worked on 6, rested on the seventh and that is why we rest on the seventh as well.
It certainly sounds like you’re saying that the CC interpreted the time of creation of the world to be 6 days.

Could you please explain what you meant if you didn’t mean that?
 
It was true to the Nazis.
So let’s say there’s a Nazi that tells you, “Jews are not humans”.

You will tell him, “That’s certainly true for you”?

What if there’s a person when asked, “What number is bigger, 15 or 5?” who answers, “5!”, you would tell him, 'That’s certainly true for you"?
 
That’s all I’m claiming. That the church’s interpretation of the time was 6 days. Worked on 6, rested on the seventh and that is why we rest on the seventh as well.
I’ll get to the Augustine point a bit later, but it seems to me that your argument - regarding translating the Hebrew word yom into the English day or similar Latin and Greek equivalents constrains the use of that word to meaning something like “a defined period of 24 hours” - is not and was not ever established.

I remember reading books to my kids on dinosaurs that contained phrases such as “in the days of the dinosaurs” or “in days long, long ago.” These were non-fiction books, mind you, purportedly books that contained facts about dinosaurs. Well, I now (well, after being enlightened by you on the misuse of the word “day” :D) must go to the bookshelf and rids my collection of those tossers. How could informed individuals be so ready to deceive and misinform whole generations of gullible children? After all the dinosaurs lived on the Earth for millions of years, not mere days as statements such as “in the days of the dinosaurs” and “in days long, long ago” so blatantly and erroneously claim.

You know what, though? As I recall none of the young listeners to those stories took the word “day” to strictly mean “a period of 24 hours.” They intuitively understood the authors were using the word in an attenuated or inexact, even metaphorical way - a placeholder of sorts for a long undefined period of time. Even young children understood that words have to make sense in their context and even could be used figuratively, as the context will often indicate.

Ergo, I see no reason to think that even if an English writer (or Greek or Latin) uses or used the word “day” in a narrative or translation for yom that they necessarily mean(t) it to refer only to its exact, 24 hour by-the-clock meaning.

Please note the second definition under #7 from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Code:
  noun \ˈdā\
1 a : the time of light between one night and the next
b : daylight 1
c : daytime
2 : the period of rotation of a planet (as earth) or a moon on its axis
3 : the mean solar day of 24 hours beginning at mean midnight
4 : a specified day or date
5 : a specified time or period : age <in grandfather’s day> — often used in plural
6 : the conflict or contention of the day
7 : the time established by usage or law for work, school, or business — day after day
: for an indefinite or seemingly endless number of days
 
By some? Do you mean some small clued up scientifically literate section of the Christian community? And you want to quote him as a means to indicate that people did NOT think that the world was 6,000 years old? Well, over to you, Augustine ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XII.10.html: (my emphasis):

‘They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000 years have yet passed.’[20]
However, what we have seen, and what we have just had confirmed by no less than Augustine himself, ‘best available knowledge’ at the time was a creation lasting 6 days and the age of the world to be 6,000 years. I mean, the guy actually gives that figure himself.
Are you now going to say that Augustine can be trusted…
It isn’t clear where the Patristic Fathers stood in the matter because they were all over the map on the issue and were still trying to make sense of it.

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR: For as Adam was told that on the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression “The day of the Lord is as a thousand years” is connected with this subject [Dialogue with Trypho 81 (c. A.D. 155)].

ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA And how could creation take place in time, seeing time was born along with things that exist? ... So that we may be taught that the world was originated [in this way], and not suppose that God made it in time, prophecy adds: “This is the book of the generation: also of the things in them, when they were created in the day that God made heaven and earth.” **For the expression “when they were created” intimates an indefinite and dateless production. **[Miscellanies 6:16 (c. A.D. 207)].

ORIGEN OF ALEXANDRIA For who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? And that the first day was also without a sky? And who is so foolish as to suppose that God, after the manner of a husbandman, planted a paradise in Eden, towards the east, and placed in it a tree of life, visible and palpable, so that one tasting of the fruit by the bodily teeth obtained life? And again, that one was a partaker of good and evil by eating the fruit? And if God is said to walk in the paradise in the evening, and Adam to hide himself under a tree, **I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance, and not literally **[Fundamental Doctrines 4:16 (c. A.D. 225)].

And since [the pagan Celsus] makes the statements about the “days of creation” ground of accusation, as if he understood them clearly and correctly, some of which elapsed before the creation of light and heaven, the sun and moon and stars, and some after, we shall only make this observation, that Moses must have forgotten that he had said a little before “that in six days the creation of the world had been finished” and that in consequence of his forgetfulness he adds to these words the following: “This is the book of the creation of man in the day when God made the heaven and the earth” [Gn 2:4] [Against Celsus 6:51 (c. A.D. 248)].
Translation: Moses must have forgotten that he claimed God made the world in six days when in Genesis 2:4 he says it was one day.

ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO There is knowledge to be had, after all, about the earth, about the sky, about the other elements of this world, about the movements and revolutions or the magnitude and distances of constellations, about the predictable eclipses of moon and sun, about the cycles of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, fruits, stones, and everything else of this kind. And it frequently happens that even non-Christians have knowledge of this sort that they can substantiate with scientific arguments or experiments. Now it is quite disgraceful and disastrous, something to be on one’s guard against at all costs, that they should ever hear Christians spouting what they claim our Christian literature has to say on these topics, and talking such nonsense that they can scarcely contain their laughter when they see them to be toto caelo, as the saying goes, wide of the mark. And what is so vexing is not that misguided people should be laughed at, as that our authors should be assumed by outsiders to have held such views and, to the great detriment of those about whose salvation we are concerned, should be written off and consigned to the wastepaper basket as so many ignoramuses...*. It is in order to take account of this state of things that I have, to the best of my ability, drawn out and presented a great variety of possible meanings to the words of the book of Genesis that have been darkly expressed in order to put us through our paces. I have avoided affirming anything hastily in a way that would rule out any better alternative explanation, leaving everyone free to choose whichever they can grasp most readily in their turn [Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20 (c. A.D. 408)].
So for the sake of argument, let us suppose that these seven days [which we experience in a modern week], which in their stead [in the stead of the days of creation] constitute the week that whirls times and seasons along by its constant recurrence, in which one day is the whole circuit of the sun from sunrise to sunrise—that these seven [modern days] represent those first seven [days of creation] in some fashion, though we must be in no doubt that they are not at all like them, but very, very dissimilar [ibid., 4:27].

Augustine, you say?
 
So let’s say there’s a Nazi that tells you, “Jews are not humans”.

You will tell him, “That’s certainly true for you”?

What if there’s a person when asked, “What number is bigger, 15 or 5?” who answers, “5!”, you would tell him, 'That’s certainly true for you"?
Yes, for those two cases, within the category of “true” that I was explaining. People can believe to be stating the truth, even if they’re not. That makes their statements true, for them. Any polygraph test (if those things actually work) will show that they are being truthful, or, to use a different word, not lying.

You say god exists… my reply to you is: “that’s certainly true for you”.

A Nazi would know very well that a Jew was biologically as much a human as he was… but still not consider him human (or as human as himself - like a racist does). How would anyone convince that Nazi to the humanness of the Jew? A generational battle…

The guy with the wrong numerology, would be a simple task of showing him the correct convention and would possibly require that he check that with a series of other people.

How can an atheist convince a believer that the god they think exists may not be there?
As far as I’m aware, there’s no one way… such things tend to happen within the individual, as he thinks about matters… we on the outside can only provide thinking material. Questions.
  • How sure are you that Jesus was a real person from the first century?
  • How sure are you that he died crucified?
  • How sure are you that he resurrected?
  • How sure are you that the alleged followers of Jesus wrote accurately about him?
  • How sure are you that the writings were made by the persons claimed?
    etc.
    etc.
    etc.
I’m not wanting to turn anyone into a non-believer… but I try to ask this sort of questions, in part for my own instruction… but in part to get you guys to think about them.
Most, you may have already heard, thought and digested thoroughly… so it’s mostly for my own instruction.
Eventually, I may hit upon a new one… we’ll see…
 
It isn’t clear where the Patristic Fathers stood in the matter because they were all over the map on the issue and were still trying to make sense of it.

…]
Augustine, you say?
That was impressive, Peter! Awesome! :):tiphat:
 
I’ll get to the Augustine point a bit later, but it seems to me that your argument - regarding translating the Hebrew word yom into the English day or similar Latin and Greek equivalents constrains the use of that word to meaning something like “a defined period of 24 hours” - is not and was not ever established.

I remember reading books to my kids on dinosaurs that contained phrases such as “in the days of the dinosaurs” or “in days long, long ago.” These were non-fiction books, mind you, purportedly books that contained facts about dinosaurs. Well, I now (well, after being enlightened by you on the misuse of the word “day” :D) must go to the bookshelf and rids my collection of those tossers. How could informed individuals be so ready to deceive and misinform whole generations of gullible children? After all the dinosaurs lived on the Earth for millions of years, not mere days as statements such as “in the days of the dinosaurs” and “in days long, long ago” so blatantly and erroneously claim.

You know what, though? As I recall none of the young listeners to those stories took the word “day” to strictly mean “a period of 24 hours.” They intuitively understood the authors were using the word in an attenuated or inexact, even metaphorical way - a placeholder of sorts for a long undefined period of time. Even young children understood that words have to make sense in their context and even could be used figuratively, as the context will often indicate.

Ergo, I see no reason to think that even if an English writer (or Greek or Latin) uses or used the word “day” in a narrative or translation for yom that they necessarily mean(t) it to refer only to its exact, 24 hour by-the-clock meaning.

Please note the second definition under #7 from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Correct Plato and YOM is still used today in some languages to denote either a literal day or indefinite time period .

In my parents culture they speak Levantine Arabic and in the Lebanese spoken language YOM is still used except today it’s il YOM or al YOM .

Anyone that restricts YOM to one definition is ignoring the historical context of how the word was being used back then or even today
 
Maybe you are not aware that the N in NDE stands for ‘near’.
Actually Brad, that definition is also starting to change . The lead researcher for aware doctor Sam parnia who is an agnostic is starting to call them actual death experiences because in some cases there is very little difference because in cardiac arrest the brain goes flat line and is non functional within 30 seconds .the only difference is that in clinical death u can bring the person back but in a person that’s been buried fir weeks their brain circuitry has decayed .
But non functional is non functional .

And peak in Darien ndes are even more amazing because the Nde experiencer brings back info from the afterlife about a dead loved one who no one knew had died but when they call to check on them they find out that the person who had contacted the Nde experiencer during his trip to heaven or the heavenly realm and told them that they had to go back .
 
Maybe you are not aware that the N in NDE stands for ‘near’.
Actually Brad, that definition is also starting to change . The lead researcher for aware doctor Sam parnia who is an agnostic is starting to call them actual death experiences because in some cases there is very little difference because in cardiac arrest the brain goes flat line and is non functional within 30 seconds .the only difference is that in clinical death u can bring the person back but in a person that’s been buried fir weeks their brain circuitry has decayed .
But non functional is non functional .

And peak in Darien ndes are even more amazing because the Nde experiencer brings back info from the afterlife about a dead loved one who no one knew had died but when they call to check on them they find out that the person who had contacted the Nde experiencer during his trip to heaven or the heavenly realm and told them that they had to go back .
 
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