Proving The Resurrection By the "Minimal Facts" Approach

[humble_catholic]

deanradin.com/evidence/Greyson2010.pdf

Physician K. M. Dale related the case of 9-year-old Eddie Cuomo, whose fever finally broke after nearly 36 hours of anxious vigil on the part of his parents and hospital personnel. As soon as he opened his eyes, at 3:00 in the morning, Eddie urgently told his parents that he had been to heaven, where he saw his deceased Grandpa Cuomo, Auntie Rosa, and Uncle Lorenzo. His father was embarrassed that Dr. Dale was overhearing Eddie’s story and tried to dismiss it as feverish delirium. Then Eddie added that he also saw his 19-year- old sister Teresa, who told him he had to go back. His father then became agitated, because he had just spoken with Teresa, who was attending college in Vermont, two nights ago; and he asked Dr. Dale to sedate Eddie. Later that morning, when Eddie’s parents telephoned the college, they learned that Teresa had been killed in an automobile accident just after midnight, and that college officials had tried unsuccessfully to reach the Cuomos at their home to inform them of the tragic news (Steiger and Steiger 1995:42–46).

The most famous peak in Darien Nde is from doctor eben Alexander who is a Harvard trainer neurologist who taught at Harvard for more then 15 years . He was an atheist and materialist before his Nde . When he went into the heavenly real he was on the back of a giant butterfly flying through heaven and right next to him was a beautiful spirit guide woman who communicates to him mentally that he was loved and cherished forever .

When he came out of his condition he went to find his biological family (he was adopted as a child) and found out that they had another daughter aft they gave him up for adoption and she died years earlier in 1998. When they sent him her picture and he saw her he instantly recognized her as the beautiful spirit guide next to him on the giant butterfly .
Classic peak in Darien Nde , before this experience doctor Alexander was an atheist .
youtu.be/S61vrWBPSHI

And this is only one of many reasons that ndes can’t be explained by positing hallucinations as the cause .

And if you look at former atheist doctor Jeffrey long’s global studies of commonalities between ndes from across cultures and beliefs you will see that one of the common occurrences across the globe is that they will see either a being if light or an orb of light and instantly information is transferred to them and they know that this light is the creator if all reality .

Many of the top Nde researchers started out as atheists and left atheism because of what they research told them.

As far as I know there is only one Nde researcher that is still an atheist but his theory of rem introsuin as being the cause of ndes was debunked a while ago.

 

[humble_catholic]

I had never heard of that Pim doctor… the wiki helps with those things…

“Pim van Lommel (born 15 March 1943) is a Dutch author and researcher in the field of near-death studies. He studied medicine at Utrecht University, specializing in cardiology. He worked as a cardiologist at the Rijnstate Hospital, Arnhem, for 26 years (1977-2003).”

“Jason Braithwaite, a Senior Lecturer in Cognitive Neuroscience in the Behavioural Brain Sciences Centre, University of Birmingham, issued an in-depth analysis and critique of Lommel’s prospective study published in the medical journal The Lancet, concluding that while Lommel’s et al. study makes a useful contribution, it contains several factual and logical errors. Among these errors are Lommel’s misunderstandings and misinterpretations of the dying-brain hypothesis, misunderstandings over the role of anoxia, misplaced confidence in EEG measurements (a flat electroencephalogram (EEG) reading is not evidence of total brain inactivity), etc. Jason concluded with, “it is difficult to see what one could learn from the paranormal survivalist position which sets out assuming the truth of that which it seeks to establish, makes additional and unnecessary assumptions, misrepresents the current state of knowledge from mainstream science, and appears less than comprehensive in its analysis of the available facts.””

Can you spot the difference in background of these two researchers?

Now, the other guy has no wiki page, apparently, maybe this will do:

"Jeffrey Long, M.D., is a physician practicing the specialty of radiation oncology (use of radiation to treat cancer) in Houma, Louisiana. Dr. Long has served on the Board of Directors of IANDS (International Association for Near-Death Studies), and is actively involved in NDE research. "

Again, an odd background for such research, wouldn’t you say?
I’d put my money on the guy who studies “Cognitive Neuroscience” over the oncologist and the cardiologist… any day!
Specially, when people point out faulty methodology by the proponents of NDEs.

Poca, the guy who studied neuroscience assumes from the start that ndes are brain based and goes on to prove his conclusion right . Neuroscientists have never done any Nde research either and lean heavily towards atheism .

When it comes to ndes do you go to a person that studies the possible ways that a brain could function in the scope of a very limited materialistic worldview or do you go to the experts who have done the actual Nde studies .

Notice how the skeptic you brought up totally ignored the veridical aspects of the ndes in lommels research . Why is that ?
It’s because it will completely demolish his argument and critique of lommels work .

And almost every time these neuroscientists refuse to even engage and debate the Nde researchers on the evidence e from their Nde research . Don’t you find it odd .

Let me show you what happens when a neuroscientist who has access to the most recent research within neuroscience goes against someone that knows their Nde research . In my next post I will show the audio interview from skeptiko of professor Patricia churchland .

Professor churchland teaches at ucsd in San Diego which is one of the most prestigious medical schools in America
Watch how when she gets caught misrepresenting doctor pim van lommels research and even lies about his opinion in her book, instead of admitting to this she hangs up on him 3 times and makes believ that it’s an audio problem on his end

 

[humble_catholic]

Poca, this is what happens when an Oxford trainer neuroscience philosopher goes against someone who is very familiar with the current Nde research . She was demolished and humiliated and when she was challenged on the evidence she got so defensive and shut down .its easy to write a critique but when you put that critique to the test the outcome is completely different .
These atheist materialist neuroscientists refuse to debate the issue .sam Harris who himself has a Ph.D. I. Neuroscience refuses to debate Doctor eben Alexander on this subject as well.
youtu.be/7a6ZaivvCnE

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, for those two cases, within the category of “true” that I was explaining. People can believe to be stating the truth, even if they’re not.

So would the Nazi I cited be an example of this?

And also the mathematical example also fall into the category of something that some asserts to be true that actually isn’t true?

 

[pocaracas]

So would the Nazi I cited be an example of this?

And also the mathematical example also fall into the category of something that some asserts to be true that actually isn’t true?

Yes, that is correct… both are examples of this kind of “true statements”.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, that is correct… both are examples of this kind of “true statements”.

So what’s the actual truth?

Jews are indeed human persons.

15 actually is greater than 5.

Yes?

 

[pocaracas]

So what’s the actual truth?

Jews are indeed human persons.

15 actually is greater than 5.

Yes?

Yes… as far as I’m aware, on this planet, only humans are capable of being religious. Hence, only humans can be jew, so jews are humans.

And the sequence of numbers does put 15 as greater than 5. 15 apples are more apples than 5 apples.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes… as far as I’m aware, on this planet, only humans are capable of being religious. Hence, only humans can be jew, so jews are humans.

And the sequence of numbers does put 15 as greater than 5. 15 apples are more apples than 5 apples.

Excellent.

So the Nazi who asserts that Jews are not human beings are…wrong.

As is the person who says that 5 is greater than 15.

Are we agreed here?

Both folks are wrong.

Even if what they assert, they assert with great assurance that it’s true. They believe it to be true.

But they are wrong.

Yes?

 

[pocaracas]

Excellent.

So the Nazi who asserts that Jews are not human beings are…wrong.

As is the person who says that 5 is greater than 15.

Are we agreed here?

Both folks are wrong.

Even if what they assert, they assert with great assurance that it’s true. They believe it to be true.

But they are wrong.

Yes?

Indeed, they are not using the agreed upon definitions of humans (for the Nazi case) and of numbers.
They may be using some other definition, but that would just render any conversation between us and them a bit nonsensical.

 

[pocaracas]

Poca, the guy who studied neuroscience assumes from the start that ndes are brain based and goes on to prove his conclusion right . Neuroscientists have never done any Nde research either and lean heavily towards atheism .

Why is that, I wonder?..

When it comes to ndes do you go to a person that studies the possible ways that a brain could function in the scope of a very limited materialistic worldview or do you go to the experts who have done the actual Nde studies .

I’d go for people that study the brain and who do actual NDE studies…
If there’s none of those, then we best withhold judgement until there are, don’t you think?

Notice how the skeptic you brought up totally ignored the veridical aspects of the ndes in lommels research . Why is that ?
It’s because it will completely demolish his argument and critique of lommels work .

His argument is that the methodology was sloppy.
With sloppy methodology, you can arrive at any conclusion… specially if you’re primed towards a particular one…

And almost every time these neuroscientists refuse to even engage and debate the Nde researchers on the evidence e from their Nde research . Don’t you find it odd .

It seems to me that they mostly find the “evidence” anecdotal.
It’s the same phenomenon when most atheists refuse to debate creationists.

Let me show you what happens when a neuroscientist who has access to the most recent research within neuroscience goes against someone that knows their Nde research . In my next post I will show the audio interview from skeptiko of professor Patricia churchland .

Professor churchland teaches at ucsd in San Diego which is one of the most prestigious medical schools in America
Watch how when she gets caught misrepresenting doctor pim van lommels research and even lies about his opinion in her book, instead of admitting to this she hangs up on him 3 times and makes believ that it’s an audio problem on his end

Honestly, I don’t know what went on in that interview… interviews over skype are always sketchy.
I did hear the typical sound of a low quality connection… believe me, I’ve been on several of those… and those are notorious for abrupt failures where both parties think they’re talking, but none is listening to the other… and then the call drops, due to some connection timeout. Usually, these timeouts are of one or two minutes - enough time for a person to go on speaking until they wait for the other to reply… fail to get a reply… and the call drops.

 

[PRmerger]

Excellent.

So the Nazi who asserts that Jews are not human beings are…wrong.

As is the person who says that 5 is greater than 15.

Are we agreed here?

Both folks are wrong.

Even if what they assert, they assert with great assurance that it’s true. They believe it to be true.

But they are wrong.

Yes?

Indeed, they are not using the agreed upon definitions of humans (for the Nazi case) and of numbers.
They may be using some other definition, but that would just render any conversation between us and them a bit nonsensical.

So the accurate model of reality is this: 15 is greater than 5. Jews are human beings.

And therefore anyone who says something contrary to the above is wrong. That is, not asserting a true model or reality.

So…either God exists, and that is an accurate model of reality.

Or God doesn’t exist, and that is an accurate model of reality.

But both of these models cannot be true.

Both cannot be true.

Even if people assert either of these propositions, and are *truthful * (that is, sincere) when asserting it.

Yes?

One can be sincere but be just plain WRONG.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s well established that the christ myth pre-dated Jesus, from the pslam, right?

Well, this is begging the question (again), poca.

A christ was expected, right?

Yes.

The tomb was empty because it was necessary for the story of Jesus to be that of Christ… perhaps?

Ok.

So why was it empty?

Where was the body of Jesus?

Who moved it?

And how did they get past the Roman guards?

 

[pocaracas]

So the accurate model of reality is this: 15 is greater than 5. Jews are human beings.

And therefore anyone who says something contrary to the above is wrong. That is, not asserting a true model or reality.

So…either God exists, and that is an accurate model of reality.

Or God doesn’t exist, and that is an accurate model of reality.

ok… but do note that, if God doesn’t exist (and by God, we mean the god of christianity), then, other gods (possibly from other religions, or never considered by humanity) may still exist and that would be the accurate model of reality.
Let’s not discount anything, huh?

But both of these models cannot be true.

Both cannot be true.

Even if people assert either of these propositions, and are *truthful * (that is, sincere) when asserting it.

Yes?

One can be sincere but be just plain WRONG.

Yes.
You have there two mutually exclusive claims. If one is true, the other is false.

 

[pocaracas]

Well, this is begging the question (again), poca.

Yes.

Considering this “yes” answer from you… I’m not sure I was begging any question…

Ok.

So why was it empty?

Where was the body of Jesus?

Who moved it?

And how did they get past the Roman guards?

Ohhh… so many questions!
Can I play too?

Who said there was a tomb?
Who said it was empty?
Who said Jesus’ body was supposed to be there?
Who said anyone would need moving?
Who said the romans were guarding a private tomb?.. this is one the strangest parts of the tale… roman guards guarding a private tomb, the tomb of the equivalent of a common thief… was that really worth spending two guards?
(feel free to lecture me on this, because I’m clueless about this practice of guarding tombs of nobodies)

 

[Peter_Plato]

Who said the romans were guarding a private tomb?.. this is one the strangest parts of the tale… roman guards guarding a private tomb, the tomb of the equivalent of a common thief… was that really worth spending two guards?
(feel free to lecture me on this, because I’m clueless about this practice of guarding tombs of nobodies)

Strange thing, Poca…

At one time I had the impression that Palestine for the Romans was a distant outpost frequented by nobodies and of no real importance to the Empire. (Sort of like your impression that Romans wouldn’t be caught dead guarding the tombs of nobodies.)

Yet, when I actually began to read some history after visiting Rome and seeing on the Via Sacra the Arch of Titus commemorating the future emperor’s personal involvement in leading the four legions in the destruction of Jerusalem, it became apparent that Jerusalem was slightly more important to Rome than I had supposed.
You have to recognize that Vespasian, who became emperor of Rome during his siege of Jerusalem, left the task to his son Titus, who succeeded him as emperor. Now why would two men successively named emperors at the time busy themselves with sacking a city of nobodies?

Perhaps because the city was vitally important to Rome and someone on trial as “King of the Jews” would have drawn at least some attention.

You are aware that, besides the Arch of Titus, the Colosseum (Flavian Amphitheatre) was constructed from the booty taken from the Jerusalem Temple, that the Temple of Peace was built to celebrate the conquest and housed the Great Menorah taken from the Temple AND a series of Roman coins were minted to celebrate the great event?

Can you name any other military conquest that was the direct cause of such a celebratory building spree for any Roman Emperor?

Judaea Capta coinage: Judaea Capta coins were a series of commemorative coins originally issued by the Roman Emperor Vespasian to celebrate the capture of Judaea and the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem by his son Titus in 70 during the First Jewish Revolt.
Temple of Peace: In 75, the Temple of Peace, also known as the Forum of Vespasian, was built under Emperor Vespasian in Rome. The monument was built to celebrate the conquest of Jerusalem and it is said to have housed the Menorah from Herod’s Temple.
Flavian Amphitheater: Otherwise known as the Colosseum built from 70 to 80. Archaeological discoveries have found a block of travertine that bears dowel holes that show the Jewish Wars financed the building of the Flavian Amphitheatre.
Arch of Titus: In around c.82, Roman Emperor Domitian constructed the Arch of Titus on Via Sacra, Rome, to commemorate the capture and siege of Jerusalem in 70, which effectively ended the Great Jewish Revolt, although the Romans did not achieve complete victory until the fall of Masada in 73.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70

I suppose that being “clueless about this practice of guarding tombs of nobodies” would go hand in hand with being “clueless about this practice of Roman Emperors sacking the cities of nobodies.”

 

[PRmerger]

Considering this “yes” answer from you… I’m not sure I was begging any question…

Sure you did. You assumed that the Christ story is a myth.

But you haven’t yet proved that.

Who said there was a tomb?
Who said it was empty?
Who said the romans were guarding a private tomb?..

We have 4 ancient writers who said this.

At least.

this is one the strangest parts of the tale… roman guards guarding a private tomb, the tomb of the equivalent of a common thief… was that really worth spending two guards?
(feel free to lecture me on this, because I’m clueless about this practice of guarding tombs of nobodies)

Why do you find it strange?

Did not the Romans crucify him?
Why wouldn’t they put guards there to prevent anyone stealing it to say: he said he would rise! And look! He did rise! No body!

I’m confused by your confusion.

 

[Bradski]

…it seems to me that your argument - regarding translating the Hebrew word yom into the English day or similar Latin and Greek equivalents constrains the use of that word to meaning something like “a defined period of 24 hours” - is not and was not ever established.

Ergo, I see no reason to think that even if an English writer (or Greek or Latin) uses or used the word “day” in a narrative or translation for yom that they necessarily mean(t) it to refer only to its exact, 24 hour by-the-clock meaning.

Here’s part of Deuteronomy:

Let no yeast be found in your possession in all your land for seven days. Do not let any of the meat you sacrifice on the evening of the first day remain until morning.

The days referred to are obviously 24 hours. Here’s the Latin translation:

Non apparebit fermentum in omnibus terminis tuis septem diebus et non manebit de carnibus eius quod immolatum est vesperi in die primo mane.

Note the word for ‘day’. It’s the same as used in Genesis. Meaning a period of 24 hours. There are other ways of describing a ‘period of time that is not a day’ in Latin. They were not used.

Lacking access to a Latin/Hebrew dictionary (and assuming that you were literate and could read Latin in the first instance) and having no reason to believe that what is being described is anything but a 24 hour day, how do you really think early Christians would have interpreted it? Incorrectly I would have said.

If the time period should be treated as anything other than a 24 hour day, maybe you could point me to any translation in any language from any time period that does not use the word.

 

[PRmerger]

Here’s part of Deuteronomy:

Let no yeast be found in your possession in all your land for seven days. Do not let any of the meat you sacrifice on the evening of the first day remain until morning.

The days referred to are obviously 24 hours. Here’s the Latin translation:

Non apparebit fermentum in omnibus terminis tuis septem diebus et non manebit de carnibus eius quod immolatum est vesperi in die primo mane.

Note the word for ‘day’. It’s the same as used in Genesis. Meaning a period of 24 hours. There are other ways of describing a ‘period of time that is not a day’ in Latin. They were not used.

Lacking access to a Latin/Hebrew dictionary (and assuming that you were literate and could read Latin in the first instance) and having no reason to believe that what is being described is anything but a 24 hour day, how do you really think early Christians would have interpreted it? Incorrectly I would have said.

If the time period should be treated as anything other than a 24 hour day, maybe you could point me to any translation in any language from any time period that does not use the word.

So, again, scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist.

We do not read the Bible the way fundamentalists do.

Read it the way Catholics do, Bradski, and you couldn’t remain an atheist anymore.

But it only affirms your atheism to read the bible with the same lens that fundamentalists do, so you keep asserting it in this manner.

It doesn’t work here.

 

[Bradski]

So, again, scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist.

We do not read the Bible the way fundamentalists do.

Used to read it, PR. Used to read it. I described my definition of a fundamentalist a few posts back.

It seems I have to keep on repeating myself. That generally means that what I am saying is not getting through. Probably my fault in not putting my position well enough. Either that or I have said everything I have to on any given subject.

Either way…

 

[pocaracas]

Strange thing, Poca…

At one time I had the impression that Palestine for the Romans was a distant outpost frequented by nobodies and of no real importance to the Empire. (Sort of like your impression that Romans wouldn’t be caught dead guarding the tombs of nobodies.)

Yet, when I actually began to read some history after visiting Rome and seeing on the Via Sacra the Arch of Titus commemorating the future emperor’s personal involvement in leading the four legions in the destruction of Jerusalem, it became apparent that Jerusalem was slightly more important to Rome than I had supposed.
You have to recognize that Vespasian, who became emperor of Rome during his siege of Jerusalem, left the task to his son Titus, who succeeded him as emperor. Now why would two men successively named emperors at the time busy themselves with sacking a city of nobodies?

Perhaps because the city was vitally important to Rome and someone on trial as “King of the Jews” would have drawn at least some attention.

You are aware that, besides the Arch of Titus, the Colosseum (Flavian Amphitheatre) was constructed from the booty taken from the Jerusalem Temple, that the Temple of Peace was built to celebrate the conquest and housed the Great Menorah taken from the Temple AND a series of Roman coins were minted to celebrate the great event?

Can you name any other military conquest that was the direct cause of such a celebratory building spree for any Roman Emperor?

I suppose that being “clueless about this practice of guarding tombs of nobodies” would go hand in hand with being “clueless about this practice of Roman Emperors sacking the cities of nobodies.”

Nice!

But all that was some 40 years after the alleged event of roman soldiers guarding the tomb of a criminal.
Why would they do that?

"on trial as “King of the Jews” "?? Weren’t the jews the ones who were convicting him? Jews vs Jew? Odd… Why would the romans care about the body of some dead jew?

Also… I’m a sort of coin enthusiast… mostly for present day coins, but heck… old ones are also awesome! Yes, the romans did have many other commemorative coins…
Look here just for the ones Vespasian made:
forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=401&pos=0#The-Twelve-Caesars
Look at the left side of that site and you get a list of the roman leaders… and links to the coins they minted.
Titus was seated for 3 years, coined quite a few denarius… only one mentions Judaea:
forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=402&pos=0#The-Twelve-Caesars
Odd…
But he did have the Colosseum to finish and coins to to mint with that feat in mind…much more important, it seems, than Judaea.