Proving The Resurrection By the "Minimal Facts" Approach

[pocaracas]

Sure you did. You assumed that the Christ story is a myth.

It was a story that would have been in circulation, in the common imaginary of the people, since the psalm was written and passed on… no?

What do you think such an expectation would make to the few eager to make it a reality?
Think of the recent explosion of people claiming that the end of the world is near… there was one expected “end of days” just a month ago. Remember the millennium when people actually killed themselves because they thought the world was going to end?
People tend to act on their expectations.
Generating a myth is one form of such action.

*again, I’m just applying my knowledge of human psychology to the times past in an attempt to explain how things crop up in people’s minds…

We have 4 ancient writers who said this.

At least.

Excuse for not believing the things they wrote…

Two seem to have drawn their accounts from the same source, the so-called Q. Perhaps this Q was just the story that was in circulation and these two writers picked it up from the same place, or from very close places… where were those two written?

Then one by the companion of Paul, who we know was a bit temporally removed from the actual event… Credibility falters…

Then, after all these, one alleged original eye-witness comes forth to set things straight… -.-’

Why do you find it strange?

Did not the Romans crucify him?
Why wouldn’t they put guards there to prevent anyone stealing it to say: he said he would rise! And look! He did rise! No body!

I’m confused by your confusion.

Would the romans be aware of that claim of his rising?
Would they even consider it, if they were aware?
Why would they care if someone stole the body of the dead jew who the jews themselves wanted dead? The troublemaker, causer of great distress within the peaceful city…

According to the tale, women came to the tomb… no soldiers were in sight… but the tomb was empty.
Methinks the initial roman soldiers were added to the tale, just to make it seem even more unbelievable/miraculous.

 

[PRmerger]

Used to read it, PR. Used to read it. I described my definition of a fundamentalist a few posts back.

Yeah. Actually, I don’t think you should read it. Not until you understand the Christian message better.

 

[PRmerger]

It seems I have to keep on repeating myself. That generally means that what I am saying is not getting through.

Don’t think you’re the only one.

But repetition is good sometimes, if not for intentional receiver, but for the lurkers.

 

[PRmerger]

Here’s part of Deuteronomy:

Let no yeast be found in your possession in all your land for seven days. Do not let any of the meat you sacrifice on the evening of the first day remain until morning.

The days referred to are obviously 24 hours. Here’s the Latin translation:

Non apparebit fermentum in omnibus terminis tuis septem diebus et non manebit de carnibus eius quod immolatum est vesperi in die primo mane.

Note the word for ‘day’. It’s the same as used in Genesis. Meaning a period of 24 hours. There are other ways of describing a ‘period of time that is not a day’ in Latin. They were not used.

Lacking access to a Latin/Hebrew dictionary (and assuming that you were literate and could read Latin in the first instance) and having no reason to believe that what is being described is anything but a 24 hour day, how do you really think early Christians would have interpreted it? Incorrectly I would have said.

If the time period should be treated as anything other than a 24 hour day, maybe you could point me to any translation in any language from any time period that does not use the word.

So here’s the pesky fundamentalist either/or thing again.

Catholicism typically embraces the both/and, and that’s what makes it so formidable to refute.

You heard that “days” doesn’t have to mean a literal 24 hour day.

So you interpret that to mean, “So it’s NEVER a 24 hour day in the bible”.

Nope…

Both/and.

Sometimes it’s 24 hours. Sometimes it’s an idiom. Sometimes it’s only for daylight hours. Sometimes it’s a period of time…

Both/And.

Stop with the “either/or” or ONLYs when they are not necessary.

 

[PRmerger]

Nice!

But all that was some 40 years after the alleged event of roman soldiers guarding the tomb of a criminal.
Why would they do that?

"on trial as “King of the Jews” "?? Weren’t the jews the ones who were convicting him?

Pontius Pilate was a Roman prefect, poca.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Nice!

But all that was some 40 years after the alleged event of roman soldiers guarding the tomb of a criminal.
Why would they do that?

"on trial as “King of the Jews” "?? Weren’t the jews the ones who were convicting him? Jews vs Jew? Odd… Why would the romans care about the body of some dead jew?

Also… I’m a sort of coin enthusiast… mostly for present day coins, but heck… old ones are also awesome! Yes, the romans did have many other commemorative coins…
Look here just for the ones Vespasian made:
forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=401&pos=0#The-Twelve-Caesars
Look at the left side of that site and you get a list of the roman leaders… and links to the coins they minted.
Titus was seated for 3 years, coined quite a few denarius… only one mentions Judaea:
forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=402&pos=0#The-Twelve-Caesars
Odd…
But he did have the Colosseum to finish and coins to to mint with that feat in mind…much more important, it seems, than Judaea.

Only one coin, eh?

I would suppose that one coin on a site that deals in coins only means there is one coin from the time that individual coin owners are willing to bargain for, not that that would mean only one ever minted.

One coin for such an illustrious event that an arch, the colosseum and a temple dedicated to peace were built? It would seem strange, don’t you think?

Yet, when we look at the coins from the site you provided there are four connected directly to Pontius Pilate.

forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=387&pos=0#The-Twelve-Caesars

Now, you are the coin enthusiast. Why would Pilate be so important as to merit such a disproportionate number of ancient coins in some backwater territory? Especially if he was a nobody sent to watch nobodies and his only claim to fame was that Jesus was crucified during his watch?

 

[PRmerger]

It was a story that would have been in circulation, in the common imaginary of the people, since the psalm was written and passed on… no?

That someone was going to be crucified and rise on the 3rd day?

I don’t think so.

So you still have to explain where the body went, poca.

Who lied?

Who took it?

What do you think such an expectation would make to the few eager to make it a reality?
Think of the recent explosion of people claiming that the end of the world is near… there was one expected “end of days” just a month ago. Remember the millennium when people actually killed themselves because they thought the world was going to end?
People tend to act on their expectations.
Generating a myth is one form of such action.

Fair enough.

So where was the body of Christ after he was buried?

If the Jewish authorities want to quell this myth that he rose (and they certain did want to quash it!), then why didn’t they just go to the tomb, pull out his body and say, “See? Here’s your crucified god!”

Excuse for not believing the things they wrote…

So then you’re back to They were Liars.

But you and Bradski have already acknowledged that they didn’t lie.

 

[pocaracas]

Only one coin, eh?

I would suppose that one coin on a site that deals in coins only means there is one coin from the time that individual coin owners are willing to bargain for, not that that would mean only one ever minted.

It’s possible, yes.

One coin for such an illustrious event that an arch, the colosseum and a temple dedicated to peace were built? It would seem strange, don’t you think?

Yet, when we look at the coins from the site you provided there are four connected directly to Pontius Pilate.

forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=387&pos=0#The-Twelve-Caesars

Now, you are the coin enthusiast. Why would Pilate be so important as to merit such a disproportionate number of ancient coins in some backwater territory? Especially if he was a nobody sent to watch nobodies and his only claim to fame was that Jesus was crucified during his watch?

You do know why they put the faces of the leaders on the coins, don’t you?
You can guess why so many survived from that particular time and place, no?.. Collections by Christians, perhaps?
Also, why do they appear much more worn out than the other coins from Tiberius’ time?

 

[pocaracas]

That someone was going to be crucified and rise on the 3rd day?

I don’t think so.

So you still have to explain where the body went, poca.

Who lied?

Who took it?

Doesn’t the pslam cover the resurrection detail?
They were expecting someone who would resurrect.
The story of such a resurrection could have evolved from that early hint…

Fair enough.

So where was the body of Christ after he was buried?

Whoever knew that was long gone, by the time people wrote those stories.
Not to mention that the body itself would have been mostly bones… indistinguishable from any other.

If the Jewish authorities want to quell this myth that he rose (and they certain did want to quash it!), then why didn’t they just go to the tomb, pull out his body and say, “See? Here’s your crucified god!”

Did that particular myth develop where those Jewish authorities had much of a say? Or did it develop somewhere else and was then carried to urban centers?.. Qumran seems like the kind of place for such a myth to evolve…

So then you’re back to They were Liars.

But you and Bradski have already acknowledged that they didn’t lie.

Then they didn’t tell the truth, but thought they were telling the truth.
We can agree that humans do this… quite often, even, right?

 

[PRmerger]

Doesn’t the pslam cover the resurrection detail?
They were expecting someone who would resurrect.
The story of such a resurrection could have evolved from that early hint…

Again, who lied about seeing the resurrected Christ, poca?

And why would they lie about this? Did they gain monetary rewards for professing this?

Or did they get fed to the lions?

Whoever knew that was long gone, by the time people wrote those stories.

But you’re saying that the story was going around first. Before it was written down.

So why didn’t the authorities just check the tomb?

Then they didn’t tell the truth, but thought they were telling the truth.
We can agree that humans do this… quite often, even, right?

So they thought they saw the risen Christ, but actually didn’t?

They had a mass hallucination?

It really takes way too much faith in the ridiculous to be an atheist, I think!

 

[pocaracas]

Again, who lied about seeing the resurrected Christ, poca?

And why would they lie about this? Did they gain monetary rewards for professing this?

Or did they get fed to the lions?



But you’re saying that the story was going around first. Before it was written down.

So why didn’t the authorities just check the tomb?

Where did the story evolve?
How long did it take to evolve until it had a “believable miraculous” resurrection?

So they thought they saw the risen Christ, but actually didn’t?

They had a mass hallucination?

It really takes way too much faith in the ridiculous to be an atheist, I think!

-.-’
“They” were probably just characters in the story.
Why is this a difficult concept?

 

[PRmerger]

Where did the story evolve?
How long did it take to evolve until it had a “believable miraculous” resurrection?

Egg-zactly.

What’s your answer to these questions?

 

[pocaracas]

Egg-zactly.

What’s your answer to these questions?

Probably:

Where did the story evolve?

Far from the Jewish authorities… or far enough.

How long did it take to evolve until it had a “believable miraculous” resurrection?

It seems less than 30 years.

 

[PRmerger]

Probably:

Huh?

“Where did the story evolve?
How long did it take to evolve until it had a “believable miraculous” resurrection?”

Your answers, please.

Far from the Jewish authorities… or far enough.

Proof?

And please cite your sources.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Where did the story evolve?
How long did it take to evolve until it had a “believable miraculous” resurrection?

The problem is that the compelling and “believable” nature of the original story is what brought numbers of convinced people to the faith and kept them faithful even in the face of torture and persecution.

If the story was merely a fabrication that kept morphing, who would have stayed convinced by it to the point of dying, given that it kept changing day to day? The story had to be consistent and be corroborated by facts or no one would have continued to believe it nor continue to do so in the face of persecution for over 280 years until AD 313. Unless, of course, you have a snobbish view of “evolving” human nature that says “back then people were gullible maroons, unlike today when we are much more enlightened.”

In fact, it is probably more true to say that people are less likely to be convinced about things they don’t want to be convinced about even when the facts present a compelling case. :dts:Take, for example, all the liberal Democrats who refuse to accept what goes on at Planned Parenthood in spite of the compelling video evidence. And take, for another example, this thread.

 

[pocaracas]

Huh?

“Where did the story evolve?
How long did it take to evolve until it had a “believable miraculous” resurrection?”

Your answers, please.

Proof?

And please cite your sources.

Qumran, maybe?
Damascus is an option… wasn’t there some famous figure on his was to Damascus when he met someone very influential?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_Document

The Damascus Document does represent the earliest account of a Teacher who got busted by the big guys (other jewish sect leaders) and was expected to resurrect by his followers (following the hint from that psalm). (Although this is not the earliest account of a Teacher of that community… even here, we have an evolving tale over this Teacher figure who had been “battling” the Wicked Priest for quite a while)
Mind you, he didn’t resurrect in this early version of the tale.

Soon after, we get the rising Jesus… in Mark (the unaltered version)… and another decade and we get Matthew’s full resurrection tale.

Looking at these ancient texts, we get the feeling of an evolving tale… an ever more fantastical tale, one with ever more elements attempting to make the teacher(*) character ever more fantastical… ever more divine…

(*) Here, I left “teacher” with a small ‘t’ on purpose, for denoting the shared feature of the Teacher and Jesus.

The fantastical story travels to Rome, catches on, for it does have a nice catchy theme of peace and love, and a community of believers develops.

Other places also receive parts of the story and fill in the blanks with local myths or imaginations… these later become heretics, as the original fantastical story seemed more “plausible”, or had the better debaters arguing for it…

(I must say that this view of mine has also been gaining more and more info, as time goes by… and it’s becoming ever more established, thanks greatly to you guys and how you make me research this stuff - PR, Peter, Gorgias, thank you!)

 

[PRmerger]

Qumran, maybe?
Damascus is an option… wasn’t there some famous figure on his was to Damascus when he met someone very influential?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_Document

The Damascus Document does represent the earliest account of a Teacher who got busted by the big guys (other jewish sect leaders) and was expected to resurrect by his followers (following the hint from that psalm). (Although this is not the earliest account of a Teacher of that community… even here, we have an evolving tale over this Teacher figure who had been “battling” the Wicked Priest for quite a while)
Mind you, he didn’t resurrect in this early version of the tale.

Soon after, we get the rising Jesus… in Mark (the unaltered version)… and another decade and we get Matthew’s full resurrection tale.

Looking at these ancient texts, we get the feeling of an evolving tale… an ever more fantastical tale, one with ever more elements attempting to make the teacher(*) character ever more fantastical… ever more divine…

(*) Here, I left “teacher” with a small ‘t’ on purpose, for denoting the shared feature of the Teacher and Jesus.

The fantastical story travels to Rome, catches on, for it does have a nice catchy theme of peace and love, and a community of believers develops.

Other places also receive parts of the story and fill in the blanks with local myths or imaginations… these later become heretics, as the original fantastical story seemed more “plausible”, or had the better debaters arguing for it…

(I must say that this view of mine has also been gaining more and more info, as time goes by… and it’s becoming ever more established, thanks greatly to you guys and how you make me research this stuff - PR, Peter, Gorgias, thank you!)

What you have given evidence for is for the location of Damascus.

That’s not what I asked for.

Imagine if you asked for evidence of God’s existence, and I cited this:



Would that be acceptable evidence for you?

 

[PRmerger]

(I must say that this view of mine has also been gaining more and more info, as time goes by… and it’s becoming ever more established, thanks greatly to you guys and how you make me research this stuff - PR, Peter, Gorgias, thank you!)

So you started with faith and then searched for evidence to support it.

Interesting…

Very, very interesting.

 

[pocaracas]

What you have given evidence for is for the location of Damascus.

That’s not what I asked for.

Imagine if you asked for evidence of God’s existence, and I cited this:

http://cache.desktopnexus.com/thumbseg/1256/1256170-bigthumbnail.jpg

Would that be acceptable evidence for you?

There isn’t much evidence to go on…
I provided you with texts, detailing a teacher figure evolving in time, remarkably close to where and how the Jesus figure is traditionally considered to have been.
I provided you with the notion that people can and do add details to the stories they tell and, at the time in question, tales traveled mostly by oral retelling.
I provided you with the fact that many people believe in lies.

You give me a few ancient texts detailing an extraordinary event, as seen from slightly different points of view and say: miracle, hence God. And those people couldn’t possibly be lying!

It seems we’re getting close to the “agree to disagree” part…

 

[PRmerger]

There isn’t much evidence to go on…
I provided you with texts, detailing a teacher figure evolving in time, remarkably close to where and how the Jesus figure is traditionally considered to have been.
I provided you with the notion that people can and do add details to the stories they tell and, at the time in question, tales traveled mostly by oral retelling.
I provided you with the fact that many people believe in lies.

You give me a few ancient texts detailing an extraordinary event, as seen from slightly different points of view and say: miracle, hence God. And those people couldn’t possibly be lying!

It seems we’re getting close to the “agree to disagree” part…

Well, I could say: I gave you an example of beautiful nature. Something so beautiful could only come from God, etc etc etc.

You don’t buy it.

Similarly, I read your presentation of “evidence” that there was a myth that was spread (that STILL doesn’t address how the tomb was empty) and…

I don’t buy it.

It seems we’re getting close to the “agree to disagree” part…

I have found that whenever someone says this, it’s because he is getting close to understanding that his arguments are getting more and more incoherent, even as he writes them.

But I’m just…extrapolating here.