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So, what is the requirement then? Is it the laying on of hands by a bishop in succession, or permission from the pope? If the pope can give permission for presbyter ordination, then obviously the CC recognizes presbyter ordination, and therefore presbyter ordination is valid.
Melanchthon answers as to why, in the beginning, the Evangelical Catholic churches turned to presbyter ordination:So how can you then justify the Lutheran way of disregarding bishops and ordaining presbyters by presbyters…
Exactly what Lutheran synods have done, link with communions that have continued in the episcopacy. The best solution, of course, here in the west, would be reconciliation with the Catholic Church.
The confusion is not whether they are schismatic, when we are talking about succession. Schism does, however, wound the effectiveness of all of our ministries.
Are Catholic bishops willing to ordain Lutheran pastors? If not, then to make sure our laity receives the sacraments, we rely on divine law which allows for presbyter ordination, until the day comes when reconciliation happens. Pray for the day.
Jon
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Peter_J
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Don’t remind me. Ever since Vatican II the ecumenists have been messing with all our best traditions.
Well, no worse than Catholic churches installing metal doors so we can’t nail copies of the 95 theses on them every Oct 31.Don’t remind me. Ever since Vatican II the ecumenists have been messing with all our best traditions.
Jon
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pablope
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Peter_J
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Okay this conversation has gotten weird.Well…Jon…you answered the question…with Papal permission and only in special circumstances, is a presbyter able to ordain.
Otherwise, by Tradition…it is the bishop who can confer Holy Orders.
So following this line…where did Lutherans get their approval to have presbyters ordain presbyters?
Who, with the proper authority, gave Melanchton to act as he did?
Yeah…but what have they accomplished in return? What the fruits of such links? More confusion and more befuddlement of the issue, isn’t it?
And making this link…with those in separation with the CC or any of the apostolic churches…are they making headway for unity or are they going the other direction?
That is right. Only Catholicism can make protestantsm work…as per Bouyer…
Okay…so this begs the question…why do it through schismatics?
Jon…all Lutheran pastors have to do is to follow the example of the Anglicans…swim across the Tiber.
Anyway…if Catholic bishops ordained Lutheran pastors willy nilly…without communion between churches…what would this accomplish? More disobedience and fracturing? Would you really like this to happen?
Is God punishing me for spending so much time on internet forums when I could be reading, say, the bible, Vatican II documents, joint declarations, etc?
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Michael57
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They’ve been using duct tape on my parish doors to stick them there every Oct. 31st…Well, no worse than Catholic churches installing metal doors so we can’t nail copies of the 95 theses on them every Oct 31.
Jon
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Michael57
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pablope
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Hmm…I don’t know. I just ask questions…that is all.
Michael,They’ve been using duct tape on my parish doors to stick them there every Oct. 31st…
Of course, you know, I was joking. You post here, however, seems serious. If this is indeed happening, it is inappropriate, unless the priest and pastor have an agreement to use the event to teach the laity of both parishes about the history of the Reformation, and the issues of the Reformation era (a great idea if the two clergymen and parishes have developed a charitable working relationship).
Jon
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Peter_J
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I think you’ve been watching too much TV. (Or not enough.)
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aidanbradypop
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I watch Ancient Aliens wayyyy too much lol
By the same divine law that allowed the Cistercian abbots to use presbyter ordination.
Melanchthon, with the approval of those of the Evangelical Catholic Churches, was responding to the Diet of Augsburg, Charles V, etc.
Actually, it could have the effect of reducing the amount of confusion, if Lutherans and Anglicans are seen as speaking with one voice. That said, I am concerned about some of the ordination practices of the more liberal Lutheran and Anglican groups.
Again, it depends on where it leads. I believe all unity eventually has to lead to and include Rome, for western Christians, as it is the western see.
Perhaps I should put buyer on my to-read list.That is right. Only Catholicism can make protestantsm work…as per Bouyer…
To a degree, we are all schismatic, since we are all in schism with other Christians. I think it a positive thing, if done right, for Lutherans and Anglicans to seek a closer relationship.
Realistically, unity is more likely to happen in a corporate way. As I recall, that was the position that Pope John Paul II took as well.
Oh, I don’t think we are yet ready for this, obviously. However, hypothetically, if this were to happen (without the willy nilly part), dont you think it would lead to a stronger link between our clergy, a greater respect for each other?
Jon
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Peter_J
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aidanbradypop
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I can never pick on those that wish to come together, however, I can pick on the doctrine and practices they preach.
With both being very liberal in a lot of areas, I only see their union producing much more liberal beliefs. I pray that does not happen. The best product would be they gain more orthodoxy.
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eamonnroma
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Why is there so much hate in this forum?
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aidanbradypop
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Where?
Welcome to CAF. Six weeks ago,today I underwent double knee replacement surgery. The prayers and best wishes I received from forum members of all communions was overwhelming.
You just have to start looking in the right places. The folks dialoging on this thread, for example, are
Most of the long term members here are. Be patient, and you’ll see the Christian charity that goes on here everyday.Jon
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Peter_J
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I don’t think there’s anything unusual about CAF in that regard.
At the risk of knowitallism, I’m guessing that either you haven’t spent much time on other forums … or else you have higher expectations for CAF because it is Catholic.
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Peter_J
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