Psalm 127 - which translation is correct?

[ricmat]

One of my favorite verses in all the bible is from Psalm 127 as it exists in the LOTH book of Christian Prayer (Grail Psalms):

In vain is your earlier rising,
your going later to rest,
you who toil for the bread you eat:
when he pours gifts on his beloved while they slumber.

NAB:
all this God gives to his beloved in sleep.

But I’ve noticed some other translations such as the RSV-CE version which reads:

for he gives to his beloved sleep.

And the DR:
when he shall give sleep to his beloved.

Living Bible:
for God wants his loved ones to get their proper rest.

NKJV, and Gideon Bible:
for so he gives his beloved sleep.

Giving sleep to somebody is totally different in meaning than giving them gifts while they sleep.

Do any of you bible experts out there have any opinion on which translation is correct? Or more correct? Or is the original vague enough so that it’s a matter of opinion?

I’m really worried that the only support for the translation I like comes from the NAB.

Thanks!

 

[Nita]

I don’t have access to my Greek references today (out of town), but the DR and RSV are usually more literal translations - especially the DR whenever I’ve had reasons to check.

The giving of sleep to his beloved shows that God takes away the anxiety (“anxious toil”) of those who trust in Him; they have interior peace.

Nita

 

[ricmat]

I don’t have access to my Greek references today (out of town), but the DR and RSV are usually more literal translations - especially the DR whenever I’ve had reasons to check.

The giving of sleep to his beloved shows that God takes away the anxiety (“anxious toil”) of those who trust in Him; they have interior peace.

Nita

Thanks, Nita. I totally missed the anxiety aspect

 

[porthos11]

ricmat:

Do any of you bible experts out there have any opinion on which translation is correct? Or more correct? Or is the original vague enough so that it’s a matter of opinion?

I’m really worried that the only support for the translation I like comes from the NAB.

Both the Masoretic Text and Septuagint attest to the KJV/RSV translations.

However, the NAB preface to the Psalms did make it clear that the 1991 Psalms were not translated from the Masoretic Text, but from an older Hebrew text underlying the Church’s Latin Psalter. I don’t know what that text is, but it’s possible that both the NAB and Grail’s differences in translation may be from there.

 

[Verbum]

Hi ricmat,

Have you read the verses that come after?

The Lord’s bounty is in sons;
a gift is the fruit of the loins;
as arrows in the hand of the hero,
so are the sons of youth.

Happy the man who filled his quiver
with these arrows.
At the city’s gate when he is challenged,
he stands up to those who attack him.

(my tr. from La Bible de Jérusalem)

I think we’re talking here about what can happen when you go to sleep… with your wife.

Verbum

 

[ricmat]

Hi ricmat,

Have you read the verses that come after?

The Lord’s bounty is in sons;
a gift is the fruit of the loins;
as arrows in the hand of the hero,
so are the sons of youth.

Happy the man who filled his quiver
with these arrows.
At the city’s gate when he is challenged,
he stands up to those who attack him.

(my tr. from La Bible de Jérusalem)

I think we’re talking here about what can happen when you go to sleep… with your wife.

Verbum

Ahh…make love, not work.

OK…or…perhaps you have a one track mind? *.

The NAB breaks the psalm into 2 parts, with my original quotation at the end of the first part and your quote above being the second part. So the sleep part seems to be disconnected from the procreation part.*

 

[Evan]

The NAB breaks the psalm into 2 parts, with my original quotation at the end of the first part and your quote above being the second part. So the sleep part seems to be disconnected from the procreation part.

Recall that there are NO BREAKS in the original text. Breaks are added by translators to support what they think the text says.

In the psalms many breaks are to break the psalm into verses so it can be set to music. The psalms are ancient songs of Israel.

 

[lak611]

From Albert Barnes’ Commentary:

For so he giveth his beloved sleep - The word “for” is not in the original, The sentence is very obscure in the connection in which it stands. The Septuagint and Latin Vulgate render it, “Ye who eat the bread of care - rise when you have rested - when he hath given his beloved sleep.” Some have supposed it to mean that God gives his people rest without toil, or that, while others labor, his “beloved” - his friends - sleep; but this interpretation is not necessarily demanded by the Hebrew, and is inconsistent with the general doctrine of the Bible. Others have supposed the idea to be, that God gives his beloved rest after labor; but though this is true, it is not true of them especially or exclusively. Some suppose, with as little probability, that the meaning is, that what others hope (but hope in vain) to get by labor, the Lord bestows upon his people in sleep, they know not how.
The meaning evidently is, that God bestows “sleep” upon his people in some sense in which it is not bestowed on others, or that there is, in regard to their case, something in which they differ from those who are so anxious and troubled - who rise so early for the sake of gain - who toil so late - who eat the bread of care. The idea seems to be that there would be calmness, repose, freedom from anxiety or solicitude. God makes the mind of his people - his beloved - calm and tranquil, while the world around is filled with anxiety and restlessness - busy, bustling, worried. As a consequence of this calmness of mind, and of their confidence in him, they enjoy undisturbed repose at night. They are not kept wakeful and anxious about their worldly affairs as other men are, for they leave all with God, and thus he “giveth his beloved sleep.” The particle “so” - כן kên - or “thus,” I apprehend, refers to the general sense of what had been said, rather than to what immediately precedes it; to the fact that all success depends on God Psa_127:1, and that it is always by his interposition, and not as the result of human skill, toil, or fatigue, that people find calmness, success, repose. It is only by the favor of God, and by their recognizing their dependence on him, that they find repose, success, and freedom from care.

 

[lak611]

Both the Masoretic Text and Septuagint attest to the KJV/RSV translations.

However, the NAB preface to the Psalms did make it clear that the 1991 Psalms were not translated from the Masoretic Text, but from an older Hebrew text underlying the Church’s Latin Psalter. I don’t know what that text is, but it’s possible that both the NAB and Grail’s differences in translation may be from there.

Incidentally, neither the NIV nor the NASB uses the Masoretic Text. This is from the NIV:

1 Unless the LORD builds the house,
its builders labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city,
the watchmen stand guard in vain.

2 In vain you rise early 
   and stay up late, 
   toiling for food to eat— 
   for he grants sleep to [a] those he loves.

3 Sons are a heritage from the LORD, 
   children a reward from him.

4 Like arrows in the hands of a warrior 
   are sons born in one's youth.

5 Blessed is the man 
   whose quiver is full of them. 
   They will not be put to shame 
   when they contend with their enemies in the gate.

Footnotes:
Psalm 127:2 Or eat—/ for while they sleep he provides for

This is from the NASB:

Psa 127:1 A Song of Ascents, of Solomon. Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
Psa 127:2 It is vain for you to rise up early, To retire late, To eat the bread of painful labors; For He gives to His beloved even in his sleep.
Psa 127:3 Behold, children are a gift of the LORD, The fruit of the womb is a reward.
Psa 127:4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, So are the children of one’s youth.
Psa 127:5 How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them; They will not be ashamed When they speak with their enemies in the gate.

 

[ricmat]

From Albert Barnes’ Commentary:

Thanks lak, that was very insightful, and seemed to cover most possible interpretations.

I had the feeling that the meaning had to do with the general concept of treasures on earth (passing material things which must be labored over physically) versus treasures in heaven (lasting spiritual things, God’s blessings, which when asked for are freely given, which God gives in sleep with no other labor involved).

Is there an on-line version of the commentary you cited?

 

[lak611]

Thanks lak, that was very insightful, and seemed to cover most possible interpretations.

I had the feeling that the meaning had to do with the general concept of treasures on earth (passing material things which must be labored over physically) versus treasures in heaven (lasting spiritual things, God’s blessings, which when asked for are freely given, which God gives in sleep with no other labor involved).

Is there an on-line version of the commentary you cited?

I got the commentary from e-Sword. It is definitely a Protestant commentary, but in this case, I thought it gave a good explanation that was not anti-Catholic. It is available for free. Some of Barnes’ commentary is definitely contradictory to Catholic beliefs, as are some of the other Protestant commentaries found on e-Sword; but there are many gems to be found in Protestant commentaries.

 

[ricmat]

I got the commentary from e-Sword. It is definitely a Protestant commentary, but in this case, I thought it gave a good explanation that was not anti-Catholic. It is available for free. Some of Barnes’ commentary is definitely contradictory to Catholic beliefs, as are some of the other Protestant commentaries found on e-Sword; but there are many gems to be found in Protestant commentaries.

Thanks, I actually have e-sword, but not the commentary. I’ll download it!

 

[lak611]

Thanks, I actually have e-sword, but not the commentary. I’ll download it!

You’re welcome.

 

[porthos11]

Incidentally, neither the NIV nor the NASB uses the Masoretic Text. This is from the NIV:

Where’d this information come from? The NIV preface is very clear that the OT was translated from the Masoretic (Kittel, BHS). The NASB preface also identifies its OT source as Kittel’s text, which is an edition of the Masoretic as well.

Both the NIV and NASB use the Masoretic text.

 

[lak611]

Where’d this information come from? The NIV preface is very clear that the OT was translated from the Masoretic (Kittel, BHS). The NASB preface also identifies its OT source as Kittel’s text, which is an edition of the Masoretic as well.

Both the NIV and NASB use the Masoretic text.

Oops! :blushing: I should have said that the NIV and NASB use the Masoretic text, but the KJV does not.

 

[porthos11]

Oops! :blushing: I should have said that the NIV and NASB use the Masoretic text, but the KJV does not.

Ah okay.

And it seems like your quotes are consistent with the RSV/LXX rendering, but still not with the NAB or Grail.

I can only guess there’s really something different in the underlying Hebrew for these two translations.

 

[lak611]

Ah okay.

And it seems like your quotes are consistent with the RSV/LXX rendering, but still not with the NAB or Grail.

I can only guess there’s really something different in the underlying Hebrew for these two translations.

From the RSV:

0: A Song of Ascents. Of Solomon.
1: Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.
2: It is in vain that you rise up early and go late to rest, eating the bread of anxious toil; for he gives to his beloved sleep.
3: Lo, sons are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward.
4: Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons of one’s youth.
5: Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

From the KJV:

1: Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.
2: It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep.
3: Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
4: As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
5: Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

 

[Henry_Garon]

127:4
Douay Rheims [126]

As arrows in the hand of the mighty, so the children of them that have been shaken.

Septuagint

As arrows in the hand of a mighty man; so are the children of those who were outcasts.

But the NASB et al have this:

Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, So are the children of one’s youth.

This is quite a different idea. The first two are talking about God’s blessing the children of people who have gone through trials in life. The NASB is talking about people who have children when they are young.

Here’s the Haydock commentary:

Ver. 4. As arrows, &c. The offspring which God shall give his servants, that have been shaken and tossed about, (as the children of Israel were in their captivity) shall be like arrows in the hand of the mighty, which shall prosper and do great execution. (Challoner) — The patient sufferer will obtain a glorious recompense. (Worthington) — Children defend their parents. — Of them, &c. Hebrew, “of youth.” (St. Jerome) — Such may be able to assist their aged parents, whereas those who are born in their old age must frequently be left orphans, (Haydock) and distressed. (Calmet) — Yet the Hebrew may well admit the sense of the Vulgate, as children will be more animated to revenge the wrongs of those, from whom they have received their life. The Jews are here represented in the state of persecution. (Berthier)