Psalm 22 "reproach of men"

[jcrichton]

I had the displeasure of serving on a Jury for a young man who was convicted of armed robbery for a $2 item.

 

[jcrichton]

The Greeks called it the Galaxy (lactic means milky … so in the same tradition as the Grand Tetons (French), they certainly knew there was enough out there to be unquantifyable – liquid is after all continuous…)

Hi, Huiou Theou!

…but is this in reference to the universe or just the “milkyway” galaxy?

Also that prophecy to Abraham is recorded in scripture as fulfilled in the past.

Are we reading from the same source?

Evasion? explain, I don’t see it. And “status quo” or “status aeternum?”
(My Latin is terribly weak.)

I am following your lead (God must adhere to a contractural obligation); I am suggesting that the portion of the contract that is in our hands does not comprise the whole contract!

…I am a pseudo linguist: only know a limited number of words which are perhaps misused; I was intimating that when Yahweh seems to work outside of the stated Scriptures it is simply business/Salvation as usual because He has determined everything from the beginning; He’s broken it down to manageable portions so that our finite understanding does not suffer a complete meltdown!

“do whatever he tells you” ( ibid, NOW when I say so )

For Mary’s statement to be an imperative Jesus, as God, would have to have been subjected to her greater authority; this episode simply demonstrate that Jesus was an obedient Son.

But how does this make the plan independent of my will, is it not greater than my will but inclusive of it if I agree or in spite of it if not?

Simeon’s prophecy should sufice: “salvation and fall of many…”

If you chose to condem yourself you can accomplish exactly that; but you cannot chose damnation for me or anyone else. If I chose to ignore Yahweh God’s desire that I live and not die it is I who will die not the rest of humanity. God Salvific Plan will keep its course!

And Josephus who lived at the same time, bragged about the Essenes, Pharisees, witnessed the fall of Jerusalem – tried to save it – and never once in his history does he even notice Jesus. The only place even the Romans notice him is in a book by Seutonious – and he says “Jesus Chrestus” – which we have to assume is a mis-spelling to even count that…

Perhaps I continue to believe that we are at the same page when clearly we are not… were the Jews subject of Rome? Did Rome allow for rebellions to go unchallanged? Would a religious or any “charismatic” leader that entices the masses catch the Romans completely unaware? Conversely, why did Pilate capitulate as soon as his loyalty to Rome was called into question by the Jews? Finally, are you saying that Jesus is a figment of the imagination?

I wish I could cite all the primary sources I have read. Do you recall that when St. Paul is apprehended one of the first questions asked is if he was “that Egyptian” Acts: 21:38. A reading of what history is available shows that the charges in 21:38 are as trumped up as the charges against Jesus himself. That “Egyptian” led a movement similar to John the Baptist, who sought purification through a re-enactment of the 40 years in the desert. He was even less radical than Jesus.

Not a historian nor a scholar would I be–if I am to undestand you: the fact that Jesus is not mentioned is enough to demonstrate that He was an unknown character to anyone but the people of Nazareth? …perhaps you are agreeing with me that Jesus did not pose a political threat to the Romans nor to Herod so His greatest rival was Caiphas?

the Omnipotent God wills that all men ought to be saved in the sense of a desire, but they are not all saved. Some are lost…

…because they chose to use that portion of the contract that states that man is created “in our image and likeness.” Some meet the life and death elective and their compulsion leads them to chose death–some may be quite liberal as they make their choice “not life.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hi, Huiou Theou!

…but is this in reference to the universe or just the “milkyway” galaxy?

We have to surmise from our futuristic position which they meant … but in terms of the number of stars in the milky way – the last estimate I saw was that at minimum the milky way alone has at least 200 billion stars. The “best” estimate is that the world will reach 8 billion by around 2024. Although this curve is not truly exponential in the sense of the simple biology mathematics – it is clear that over the last 10,000 years the whole population of the earth integrated is not larger than the number of stars even in the milky way.

Are we reading from the same source?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hi, Huiou Theou!

Hi. Angel.

To finish the prophecy about the multiplication of Abraham:
Hebrews 11:12 ought to be enough, but even better is an OT example:

The promise itself was remembered and fulfilled during the exodus:

*Exodu 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will mul
tiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land…

Deute 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.
*

…we are still traveling in opposite directions… Judas’ was not under the threat of being incarcerated for selling out Jesus. Though both are acts of transgression (robbery and treachery) they are not congruent.

No, Judas was under the threat of eternal hell, not mere prison.
But, even if the crime Judas committed were against another innocent man, I would think handing an innocent man to his mortal enemies to be worse than stealing a bit of food from a store, market, or other place rich with food. What of the repentance aspect – do you not agree that the young man’s repentance was futile, and of Judas who had more evidence that what he did was greatly wrong – why do you accord him such great repentance based on the scriptures? (I am still undecided.)

I do not find that to be evident from Scriptures.

We know that without faith, healings do not happen – and that even some demons are not cast out unless there be prayer and fasting in addition to faith, but again If one has even the faith the “size of a mustard seed” an entire mountain would be thrown into the sea.
What, then do you make of this?

…
Matth 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Matth 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, …
Matth 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils …

Can beelzebul cast out beelzebul?, if the house is divided will it not fall?
And again:

Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me

Does not John evidence a certain way of thinking which Jesus does not entirely agree with?

What then, is this the reason you think Judas never believed at all:

1Cori 14:22 Wherefore … but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Or this?

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him

Do you make of belief a once in a lifetime thing, and not something which may be lost? I don’t quite understand why you say the scriptures do not show this belief in Judas at one point, and not the next.

…have you considered that Jesus was speaking about His own Resurrection? Even from among the Eleven some did not believe!

Sure, as in St. Thomas, who in fact says “My lord and my God”, upon sight of him? Explain, how did St. Thomas not “believe” in the same way as Judas? They both saw Lazarus rise – why is it necessary to accord Judas total unbelief?

…wider still; the importance of the fulfillment of the prophecies is that Yahweh God deemed it so! If you search the Old Testament you will find that the fulfillment of prophecies are one of Yahweh’s “proof” of His Omnipotence and Omniscience: “I have stated it before it happened,” “what other nation has such a God…”

What has this to do with the fault of the individual, Judas?
The “son of perdition” who was to “go to his place”, not the place “I” gave him – but “his place.”

the metamorphosis of water into wine was not a fact known to Mary from any discipleship she had received, but because she knew that Jesus was God!

Ergo: she had faith, which was perfect. So, I would say that the metamorphosis was indeed becasue of her discipleship which was fullfilled in the incarnation – in response to her humble yes.

I am reading the content and context part, (MT 26:56), Zechariah 13:7 etc… and as soon as I understand it, I will post some more questions.

So far, the idea of predestination is still seeming to be the divergent point in our understanding, along with the idea of what constitutes faith – the having and loosing of it.

Beyond the scripture quotes, I would ask you – when a direct confrontation in scriptural accounts comes into play, how do you reconcile that both parts of scripture must be true if either of them is taken in isolation?

Again, regarding Pharaoh, did he harden his own heart or did God do it for him – and why, then, is there fault for Pharaoh – and why did Pharaoh charge to his own death in the sea in a proud suicidal attempt to force his will on God and man both?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

…yes, but what percentage, 100, 5, .05, .0001?–and these after the fact!

Yes, after the fact – they repent, and go to confession. If the road to hell is wide, and that to heaven is narrow, rather than trust my sample which is > 1% I would say, the odds are probably low in the .0001 category… But then again, this is irrelevant – the number who agree with the devil over God makes no wrong action less wrong.

…wider still; the importance of the fulfillment of the prophecies is that Yahweh God deemed it so! If you search the Old Testament you will find that the fulfillment of prophecies are one of Yahweh’s “proof” of His Omnipotence and Omniscience: “I have stated it before it happened,” “what other nation has such a God…”

Yes, I agree that fulfillment of prophecy is “proof” of omniscience, not omnipotence – for even the mouth of a prophet which look forward to christ “indistinctly” are not omnipowerful – yet they know the future because it is revealed to them.

Omnipotence, does not follow on omniscience – God does not create the evil of the future, although he knows of it. Nor does it follow, that since God can do “all that can be done” that “anything can be done.”. Not even St. Thomas can say God is capable of lying, or many other acts – but merely is forced to say God can only do, what can be done – so although you don’t say God is capable of “all” things, at the same time many posts in the past seem to operate with that assumption – that because God prophecied a future “evil” that he “willed” it.

Note: I fully believe in God, the God-Man Jesus, and the working of the holy spirit – I just don’t ignore that history has something to offer in terms of how that ministry looked to the outside world, and I am not a Thomist in philosophy, although I respect what he has to offer – I do not agree on all points with him.

… Mary from any discipleship …

The following link is an encyclical which more fully addresses the issue: but a quick view of my perspective is found in paragraph 41. Search for “disciple” to quickly locate the handful of references…

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater_en.html

…here is where content and context come into play: the narrator is citing the prophecy (Mt 26:56) which is quoted from Zechariah 13:7. Part “b” of v 56 tells us that “the disciples left Him and ran away.” From the text we know that Jesus is alone with His disciples (no huge crowd of followers: v 26); the discipleship of Jesus dropped to a minimum when He Commanded that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood (Jn 6:25-71–specifically vs 66-67)

The commentary about the proportion of his followers who fell away because of the “bread of life” discourse in John is undeniably true. I note that Zechariah applies especially to the Messiah – as chapters 11-14 apply specially to the days of Jesus. The 30 pieces of silver given in prophecy to Zechariah 11:12 is the 30 pieces given to Judas – Judas too was aware of the prophecy which he fulfills.

Is this prophecy, to you, readable in only one way, such that Judas could only have fulfilled it in one way – or perhaps he had several choices, all of which God took into account in the prophecy?

But most importantly, notice it is the shepherd who takes the money – not the sheep – in the allegory. And the shepherds are not the ones dispersed in Zechariah – but the sheep. As a matter of “why”, could you explain your philosophy in choosing the twelve to be “sheep” rather than “shepherds” in the fulfillment of the prophecy in Mt 26:56?

I would think that the crowd who comes against him are the ones gone astray, the “sheep” so to speak who are to be “scattered”.

The context of the ceasing of prophecy in Zecharias 13:6 makes clear that the context of the prophecy of the sword is with respect to false prophets, carrying the sword marks of the prophets of Baal, as Mt. Carmel had in the day of Elijah.
The “associate” shepherd, then, becomes a question of “who”.
For example, the patriarch – Judah – had a pagan friend whom he married the daughters of, and this friend was cut off in his children because of thier sins – the very Onan and two sibling brothers who all failed to procreate. Judah’s pagan inlaws were an “associate” shephard, cut off…

…as explained above–it is a matter of Yahweh’s determination; Jesus must fulfill all of the prophecies for Yahweh has determined so;

Yes, but how. Is the prophecy in Zechariah to the remnant of old israel which still exists or to the new Israel to come? There are degrees of freedom in these prophecies – and I am not even sure Matthew 26:56 for the sequence is that the prophecies are fullfilled – THEN the apostles leave him.

Is here where I counter: How many times did Pharoah kill himself after his repentence?.. we are simply at opposite ends, my friend.

Once, the same as Judas. But you aren’t looking there, where are you looking then?

More…

 

[Huiou_Theou]

To bring this last argument forward clearly, as I tend to forget peices with so many going on at once – here is the trail.

The problem with that premise is that our finite undestanding limits God’s Will; God is not bound to the letter of the contract; it is we who are bound by it. While we may think that God is invalidading the contract by going outside of the paramiters that were understood by our finite knowledge, God is only bound by His own set Boundery: “I AM!”

To quote myself:

The scriptures themselves say “God can not lie.” , it is a finite text inspired by God, and it teaches no error. All church doctrines are necessarily finite.
God molds the future, but the material has free will.

Did I say otherwise? My statement is to the fact that Scriptures do not limit God:
i.e.: Mosaic Law vs. Scriptures: “you wanted no sacrifice or oblation” (Hebrews 10:5-6; Psalm 40:6-7).

But if placed back in content and context we look to Hebrews 10:1-39–specifically vs 1-7.

I lost the connection here. The psalm, “You gave me a [body]/[ear]” to hear is a single phrase out of context – the very fact that obedience is implied by the sacrifices is what carries forward into “lo, I come to do your will”. The Old testament sacrifices even at the time, on the very mountain where Moses reveals the design of the tabernacle to the Elders was foreknown as a copy of what was to come. God most certainly did reveal what was to come, and limit the ways he could fulfill these obligations – eg: he couldn’t do it without a temple, because the temple was copied with bricks and animal sacrifices – so rather than prove your point, I tend to think this proves the opposite. What do you see here that I don’t?