Psalm 6:5 - Catholic explanation

[GandalfTheWhite]

During a discussion about “praying to saints” I was presented with Psalm 6:5, which says:

No one remembers you when he is dead.
Who praises you from the grave?

How does the Church explain this quote. It seems to suggest that when someone dies he is dead. However Matthew 22:31-32 suggests that those who died are still alive.

Thank you very much.

God bless!

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Is it please possible to also explain me these?

(Ecclesiastes 9:5)
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.”

(Eccl. 9:10)
“for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.”

 

[kleary]

Well for one all who died prior to Jesus releasing them from Hell- well they went there, or at least to what is called “Abraham’s bosom” which would have been a place for the good.

So maybe in that “state” or “place” it was exactly as the Old Testament texts you quoted was. Remember we are anew now and under a New Covenant.

Ken

 

[kleary]

Also, at the time of writing those verses in the OLD Testament those who had died were not able to bring your prayers before God- since they were in a place absent from God- due to the original sin.

Ken

 

[LilyM]

Is it please possible to also explain me these?

(Ecclesiastes 9:5)
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.”

(Eccl. 9:10)
“for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.”

It’s got to be an Old Testament thing uniquely - remember St Paul promising that those who die in Christ will ‘know even as they are known’, so how can it be true that ALL the dead will know nothing and gain no knowledge or wisdom? Do we already know God even as we are known by him? Hardly. So when will we? In the afterlife.

 

[George_Craft]

Hi Gandolf.

Jesus put it clearly in these statements regarding life after death:

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead rise again, Moses also shewed, at the bush, when he called the Lord, The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; 38 For he is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him.

Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. 27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, 28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Hope this helps a little,

With love,
George

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Allright, great. I see - he was describing Sheol and at that time things were different.

I have only two more things.

1 Samuel 28:15-18 speaks about how Saul talks to Samuel who was already dead. That was in OT. Could it possibly mean that he was send by God?

Luke 16:19-31 speaks about the famous story of the rich man and Lazarus. Was Sheol really hell? Did even the conditions in hell changed?

Basically I’m trying to make a complete picture and put all those passages together. Something suggests that in OT the souls are completely ignorant - as if they were sleeping (I think some Jews believe that). Some passages from NT that take place before crucifixion (that means still old law, doesn’t it) that there was contact with dead (Jesus spoke to dead souls). Even in the OT we have the story Of Samuel. Finally the story of Lazarus suggests that those in hell still know a lot.

I appreciate your help.

In Christ!

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

I read those passages you quote from Ecclesiastes as exhortations that when we are alive here on earth we can merit. After you die you can no longer merit through sacrifice, you have your reward or your punishment:

(Ecclesiastes 9:5)
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.”

The quote is talking about how living humans remember. Who living will remember anyone who died 1000 years ago? Who remembered any Babylonians personally from the OT? So it is an exhortation while we live to merit. By “dead” here it seems to refer to the corpus before ressurection. It is a poetical admonishment to be active in the Church Militant.

peace

 

[Nita]

During a discussion about “praying to saints” I was presented with Psalm 6:5, which says:

No one remembers you when he is dead.
Who praises you from the grave?

How does the Church explain this quote. It seems to suggest that when someone dies he is dead. However Matthew 22:31-32 suggests that those who died are still alive.

Thank you very much.

God bless!

This passage and the Ecclesiastes passages can also be understood as just an accurate record of the author’s thoughts (and others in that culture) at the time. “Resurrection” was a truth that only gradually came to be recognized by the Jews. Even during (and after) Our Lord’s time, it was not accepted by all.

Acts 23:7-8 And when he (Paul) had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided. For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisee acknowledge them all.

Resurrection and eternal life are such a “standard” truth for us that we don’t even think of questioning it. But try to imagine what it would have been like when you weren’t sure - where there was no definitive teaching by your religious leaders. Helps us understand how and why Our Lord’s resurrection appearances were so important for His followers. They were VERY tangible proof (“put your hand in My side”) that - Yes, resurrection is true.

Nita

 

[tm30]

No one remembers you when he is dead.
Who praises you from the grave?

This is an admonishment not to seek the praise of men in place of God, because they may well be consigned to perdition and unable to do you any good.

The Douay-Rheims edition has it as:

6 For there is no one in death, that is mindful of thee: and who shall confess to thee in hell?

And if we look at the next few verses, we have:

7 I have laboured in my groanings, every night I will wash my bed: I will water my couch with my tears. 8 My eye is troubled through indignation: I have grown old amongst all my enemies. 9 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity: for the Lord hath heard the voice of my weeping.

It seems to me the psalmist is referring to the futility of hoping in those who have died in sin, not those who are supposedly in the bosom of Abraham. The “workers of iniquity” are his stumbling block to God.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi on the subject of afterlife, there are at least three perspectives that biblical authors can use, view in heaven, view in sheol, and view on earth. Both Psalms 6 and Ecc 9 are speaking from an earthly viewpoint. A person on earth can not see what is happening in heaven or happening in sheol. Ecc 9, Solomon is in a state of apostasy, and is speaking as a man on earth, he does not see what people in the grave are or are not doing. He is speaks as one, “under the sun”, he says “a live dog is better than a dead lion”. Read Psalm 6 for context, David is in dispair, and he is speaking from a earthly viewpoint. From his perspective on earth those in sheol are not doing anything. Now, look at Isaiah 14, it speaks from the viewpoint of those in sheol, they rise up to greet the new person who enters the world of the dead, they speak, they greet. Now, look at Rev 6 ( it is future ), but it reflects what is happening in heaven, John is viewing this in heaven itself.

Here is another example of perspective that has nothing to do with your text,

1 John 4:12-21 (King James Version)

12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19We love him, because he first loved us.

20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: **for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? **

21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Basically, John is saying that people normally in everyday life do not see God and if we don’t love our neighbor whom we can see, odds are we really don’t love God either. If you read I John 4:12 alone without paying attention to context, then the verse isolated can be used as an argument aganist the deity of Christ. But, once you read the text, and realise that John is speaking in general terms of not seeing God, then you realise that this text does not rule out all the theophanies of the OT.

 

[puzzleannie]

During a discussion about “praying to saints” I was presented with Psalm 6:5, which says:

No one remembers you when he is dead.
Who praises you from the grave?

!

the psalmist is describing the behavior of your friends after you are gone, he is not describing your ontological condition after death. How long do you think people are going to rememember Anna Nicole once the lawyers have all the money and the next celebrity behaving badly becomes the hot story?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Anna Nicole who???

You may want to explain what you mean as ontological condition for the common man.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Ontological,
What are the kinds of existance that something might have,
and how to we know these existences by the mind itself.
(My favorite proof of the existence of God is ontological –
by knowing what God means, as a word, one may discover that such a being must exist since the logic is already present in the intelligence.)

ον – being + λογος word/logic.
Literally “the logic of being.”

Pretty obscure word.

I would also comment, that “Those who are dead know nothing” may refer to sinners yet alive – for even these will not praise God.
Note: in the prodigal son – the father proclaims “my son was DEAD but now is ALIVE.” There is a figurative connotation as well as a literal one.

Mortal sinners do not praise God, anymore than a physical corpse does. The spirit is a separate issue which may not have been the OT authors intent as already noted by others.