Psalms 82:1&6

  • Thread starter Thread starter JD27076
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JD27076

Guest
Those verses says 82:1 “God rises in the divine council, gives judgement in the midst of the gods.” and 82:6 says "I declare: “Gods though you be” offspring of the Most High all of you. Are those verse referring to the gods of Mormons??? Mormons believe we can all become gods. It looks like that verse is saying something.
 
No. it probably means that we humans are like God (therefore “gods”). The first verse might mean in the midst of the pagan gods (who are being condemned) or something like that. 🤷
 
Psalsm 82 speaks of human judges. It is the authority they derive from God that makes them like gods unto the people. God gave Moses similiar authority over Pharaoh == who in Egypt was considered to be divine. People even recognized this authority in Paul and in those traveling with him. They were no trying to be gods in and of themselves, it was simply the authority God granted them over the people.

Exodus 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Acts 14:11
And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
 
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Mormans will quote, “there be gods many, and lords many”, simply go onto the next verse.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6

5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

expect the mormon to quote John 10:33-34 which refers back to Psa 82:6. In John, Jesus is simply making an argument from the lesser to greater. What is true in a lesser case (the judges had the authority of being like gods unto the people) is true of a greater case Jesus being the Son of God with all authority in heaven and earth.

The morman scripture menorizing booklet, has them quoting only part of a verse here and there ignoring context. Whenever a morman quotes scripture, stop them in their tracks, look up the passage and have them read the text in context, 9 out of 10 times the passage itself will refute their claim as to what the text means.

Isaiah is a great book to quote from because it was complete in the Dead Sea Scrolls and its manuscript was around a thousand years younger than any manuscripts on isaiah we had when the scrolls were discovered. And, that manuscript of Isaiah in the Scrolls predates the New Testament.

Read Isaiah 40 to end, taking note of passages on One God.
 
OH ok, thank you guys…and I have no idea how sinful beings can become gods…😛
 
Mormons cite few if any texts in defense of their theology of exaltation as often as John 10:34: “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” Most Mormons think this text is a knockdown argument to show that God and man belong to the same species. This view, however, misunderstands the relationship of divine and human nature that is actually presupposed in the dialogue. What Christ is saying is that divinity, which is a different nature form humanity, transforms human nature to become like itself through the reception of the divine Word. This is a thoroughly Catholic and patristic understanding of human exaltation as opposed to the totally contrary view that Mormonism teaches and often confuses with the biblical and historic Christian teaching.

Before I give my own explanation of the verse, I will critque one common response that Mormons hear usually from Protestants, which I believe to be good but inadequate. Protestants normally argue that when Jesus says “Ye are gods,” he is not declaring the divine nature of humans but the condemnation of his accusers. The warrant for this is that the traditional Rabbinical understanding of “gods” in Ps. 82 is that it refers not to divine being but to human judges. This is not the only place in scripture where a man is designated as a “god” for undertaking some divine administration. (See Exod 7:1) It is because God’s speech in the psalm is addressed to mortal, non-exalted humans that it continues, “But you shall die like men and fall like any of the princes.” The Pharisees are aware of this context and would have understood Jesus as making a rhetorical argument to the effect that although the name “God” is an honor when applied to himself it is a term of reprobation to his accusers.

Now the Protestants are right that the psalm is about human judges. (Secular biblical critics and Mormons who do not seek or see a self-consistent monotheistic teaching in the Bible will claim that the psalm is originally about God and other divine beings in the Council of El, and that the Rabbis got it wrong, but there is nothing in the text to show that Jesus is challenging the accepted interpretation of the verse; rather he is utilizing it.) They are even right that Jesus is condemning the Pharisees. The difficulty, however, is that Jesus cites Ps. 82 not merely as a negative comment against those who deny him, but as a positive warrant for his own claim to divine status. Restricting the meaning of the text to a condemnation of the Pharisees gives priority to a likely secondary meaning over and above the primary, surface meaning. The Protestant reading is thus incomplete and leaves room for the following Mormon rebuttal:

"Jesus is making an a fortiori argument, that is, an ‘argument from the stronger,’ a common form of disputation among rabbis, in which one defends the truth of a proposition by showing that it is a lesser claim than what one’s opponent already believes. In this case, the Pharisees accept Yahweh’s claim that all the mortal elohim are gods. This is a stronger claim than merely to say that Jesus is a god, so the Pharisees have no warrant to accuse Jesus for claiming divinity. Their own scriptures bestow the name ‘god’ to many beings besides the Father, who are themselves lesser than Christ. This is an even more generous sharing of the title ‘god’ than Jesus is claiming for himself as ‘him whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world.’ Hence the Pharisees have no warrant to oppose him. It is seasy to see this reasing in the text:

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (Jn 10:34-36)"

This way of reading suffers from really only one weakness, but I think it is a very fatal one: it diminishes the meaning of “god” in a way that clashes with the theological objectives and pattern of debate in all of Jesus’ controversial discourses in John. There are many instances in the gospel where Jesus creates offense by making a big, bold statement about himself. In each case, he responds to the disbelief of his hearers not by qualifying the statement but by making an even bigger claim than the one that shocked them in the first place. (The Bread of Life Discourse in John 6 is a good example of this.) This creates a problem for the a fortiori reading, because denying the uniqueness of godhood actually lowers the ante for Jesus’ claims about himself. On the Mormon reading, Jesus is saying something like, “You can’t say I blaspheme for making myself God for by your own scriptures you agree that divinity is a common property that you share yourself.” Here Jesus ends up making a big claim about human nature, and about the Pharisees. Yet the whole point of the story is that Jesus makes continually heightened claims about himself while attributing not divinity but diabolism to his interlocutors.

(continued)
 
But what alternative is there? I propose that Jesus’ argument is not merely a fortiori, from greater to lesser, but is also a posteriori, from effect to cause. The key detail in this passage is that Jesus says they are gods *To whom the word was given.* It is easy enough to read past this phrase, but it is necessary to stop and ponder it. Why does Jesus insert this qualification? It is because the term “god” does not apply to whole of humanity (and is hence not a statement about human nature as such), but only to those who receive the Word; those to whom the word is not given are not gods. Hence, the word of God is the efficient cause of divinity in all other beings. This means that they are not gods by their own nature, but by their reception of the divine nature in the Word. This is Catholic thinking.

In the context of Ps 82, the “word” is the judgment of God, but Jesus is now using “word” in a double sense. The new, second meaning is a name for himself as the divine Word made flesh. (Some, such as Bart Ehrman, who deny that John’s prologue is original to the gospel, cite as evidence the absence of any other Christological uses of “Word” in John; they should look again at John 10:35.) Compare what the Prologue and Ps 82 say about divine sonship. Speaking of the Word, the prologue says, “to as many as received him, he gave authority to become sons of God.” In Ps 82, those who whom the word was given are gods and “sons of the Most High.” In both cases, divine sonship is the result of giving and receiving the word of God.

From this it is apparent how Jesus’ argument is to be understood: Because the Word is the cause of divinity in others, it follows that the Word itself is distinctly divine. For how could the Word convey divine sonship without possessing divinity himself?

Understood in this way, I believe John 10:34 is thoroughly opposed to Mormon teaching and thoroughly in line with Catholicism. There are few myths in Mormon apologetics more widespread than that the notion that the historic Christian doctrine of theosis is somehow supportive of Mormon notions of exaltation. In reality, they are diametrically opposed and inimical to each other. Exaltation claims that man is a self-existent being, possessing the divine nature independent of it being created or otherwise caused by God, although God is needed to perfect man in the attributes proper to divinity. Theosis teaches that man is created for a supernatural end, that is, man lacks divinity by nature, so God becomes man so as to fill humanity with the divine supernature it otherwise lacks - not divine attributes, but divine nature itself. This means that the divine nature is created in man by God, who is therefore “Gods of gods” and yet absolutely unique as the first and uncaused God. IT is this unique, uncaused God, that Jesus is claiming to be.
 
Those verses says 82:1 “God rises in the divine council, gives judgement in the midst of the gods.” and 82:6 says "I declare: “Gods though you be” offspring of the Most High all of you. Are those verse referring to the gods of Mormons??? Mormons believe we can all become gods. It looks like that verse is saying something.
I think it would depen on WHEN this Psalm was written…was it written during the time in Hebrew history when they were henotheistic…or after the Exile and Return when the Jews embraced monthesism fully.

If before…then Israel’s God was one among many…but whom Israel was to worship…“you will have no other gods before me”…if after…It may be poetic language.
 
I think it would depen on WHEN this Psalm was written…was it written during the time in Hebrew history when they were henotheistic…or after the Exile and Return when the Jews embraced monthesism fully.

If before…then Israel’s God was one among many…but whom Israel was to worship…“you will have no other gods before me”…if after…It may be poetic language.
I don’t think it depends altogether on the historical setting of the original composition. Because I believe the Scriptures were given to Irsrael by Christ himself, he is their normative interpreter. Thus, it is the application of Ps. 82:6 in John 10:35 that governs my reading of the psalm. In the first century, the Jews all understood the elohim in Ps. 82 to be human judges, and Jesus’ use of the passage is consistent with that and not with the notion of a Semitic “divine council” in the sense suggested by modern secular scholars. Even if more ancient Hebrews thought of the text that way, their reading would be subject to correction by Christ.

But I also think there is good reason from the text itself to understand the elohim as human judges. “Sons of God” was a common title of kings. Mormons constantly emphasize divine sonship in scripture to back up their notion of God’s physical parentage of man. They seem to always rely on the equation “son of god = offspring of same species as God.” This extremely un-Jewish assumption overlooks the more common, covenantal significance of “son.” To be a son of God can mean to be in a covenant with him, and it can also mean to be invested as a King. That is why in 2 Sam 7:14, God’s expresses his promise to make Solomon king in these words, “I will be to him a father and he will be to me a son.” (See also Ps 2:7) I think reading Ps. 82 in that light makes more sense of the psalm in its own, even if, for the sake of argument, I admit to an interpretation independent of Jesus’ application of it. If the beings in the council of El are gods with the same nature as himself, they could not “die like men,” nor could they commit the injustices that he accuses them of.
 
I think it would depen on WHEN this Psalm was written…was it written during the time in Hebrew history when they were henotheistic…or after the Exile and Return when the Jews embraced monthesism fully.

If before…then Israel’s God was one among many…but whom Israel was to worship…“you will have no other gods before me”…if after…It may be poetic language.
It a certain sense, these ‘gods’ may also refer to the ‘angels’’, or fallen angels’ who as ‘principalities and powers’ have some sort of authority over nations.
 
I don’t think it depends altogether on the historical setting of the original composition. Because I believe the Scriptures were given to Irsrael by Christ himself, he is their normative interpreter. Thus, it is the application of Ps. 82:6 in John 10:35 that governs my reading of the psalm. In the first century, the Jews all understood the elohim in Ps. 82 to be human judges, and Jesus’ use of the passage is consistent with that and not with the notion of a Semitic “divine council” in the sense suggested by modern secular scholars. Even if more ancient Hebrews thought of the text that way, their reading would be subject to correction by Christ.

But I also think there is good reason from the text itself to understand the elohim as human judges. “Sons of God” was a common title of kings. Mormons constantly emphasize divine sonship in scripture to back up their notion of God’s physical parentage of man. They seem to always rely on the equation “son of god = offspring of same species as God.” This extremely un-Jewish assumption overlooks the more common, covenantal significance of “son.” To be a son of God can mean to be in a covenant with him, and it can also mean to be invested as a King. That is why in 2 Sam 7:14, God’s expresses his promise to make Solomon king in these words, “I will be to him a father and he will be to me a son.” (See also Ps 2:7) I think reading Ps. 82 in that light makes more sense of the psalm in its own, even if, for the sake of argument, I admit to an interpretation independent of Jesus’ application of it. If the beings in the council of El are gods with the same nature as himself, they could not “die like men,” nor could they commit the injustices that he accuses them of.
Human judges over Israel, yes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top