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Merrick
Guest
Are the psalms prayed in the new (i.e. ordinary) western liturgy based on the Septuagint or Hebrew texts?
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Neofight
Guest
Yes, Ordinary Form…I always get a laugh out of references to “new” liturgy…its been what, about 53 years? “newest” perhaps, but “new” is stretching things!
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smead2942
Guest
The Ordinary Form has been celebrated for 2% of the Church’s existence. I’d say that’s extremely new when compared to the other 98%.Yes, Ordinary Form…I always get a laugh out of references to “new” liturgy…its been what, about 53 years? “newest” perhaps, but “new” is stretching things!
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Merrick
Guest
Yeah, exactly, thank you. It’s definitely new.
If anyone can answer this question I’d be grateful. I am wondering if it is preferable to use psalms based on the Septuagint for private devotion. That’s why I’m asking.
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pianistclare
Guest
Goodness.
Such attitudes.
Praying that whatever prayers we pray are pleasing to the Most High.
Such attitudes.
Praying that whatever prayers we pray are pleasing to the Most High.
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ProVobis
Guest
The Septuagint was based on Hebrew texts so technically I suppose one can say either, though one is further removed than the other.
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ProVobis
Guest
The Septuagint was based on Hebrew texts so technically I suppose one can say either, though one is further removed from the originals than the other.
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Merrick
Guest
It’s not a matter of thinking it won’t please God. I just wanted to get some opinions! What’s wrong with that?Goodness.
Such attitudes.
Praying that whatever prayers we pray are pleasing to the Most High.
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Merrick
Guest
Thank you! Do you know if the psalms in the liturgy are based in the Hebrew or Greek texts?
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Neofight
Guest
You can recite them in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English, German, or even Klingon. God doesn’t care about the dialect, but the heart.
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Merrick
Guest
That is not what I am asking.
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Neofight
Guest
You seem to be having a difficult time getting the question you are asking answered. Perhaps the best approach would be to select a few psalms in both forms and come to your own conclusion.
Peace and all good!
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
Different countries will have different translations. In Australia the 2010 Roman Missal contains the Revised Grail Psalms. The lectionary used contains the Grail Psalms. There are plans to bring out a new lectionary with the Grail Psalms, as reported at liturgybrisbane.net.au/liturgylines/update-on-the-lectionary-16th-february-2014/ .
In the introduction to the book on the Revised Grail Psalms, Cardinal George wrote: “This situation led the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to propose a thorough revision of the 1963 Grail Psalter that would be based on both the original Hebrew text and the Nova Vulgata, and would also be in harmony with the norms of translation found in Liturgiam Authenticam (2001).”
Liturgiam Authenticam is at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20010507_liturgiam-authenticam_en.html and includes:
“41. The effort should be made to ensure that the translations be conformed to that understanding of biblical passages which has been handed down by liturgical use and by the tradition of the Fathers of the Church, especially as regards very important texts such as the Psalms and the readings used for the principal celebrations of the liturgical year; in these cases the greatest care is to be taken so that the translation express the traditional Christological, typological and spiritual sense, and manifest the unity and the inter-relatedness of the two Testaments.[34] For this reason:
a) it is advantageous to be guided by the Nova Vulgata wherever there is a need to choose, from among various possibilities [of translation], that one which is most suited for expressing the manner in which a text has traditionally been read and received within the Latin liturgical tradition;
b) for the same purpose, other ancient versions of the Sacred Scriptures should also be consulted, such as the Greek version of the Old Testament commonly known as the “Septuagint”, which has been used by the Christian faithful from the earliest days of the Church;[35]”
In the introduction to the book on the Revised Grail Psalms, Cardinal George wrote: “This situation led the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to propose a thorough revision of the 1963 Grail Psalter that would be based on both the original Hebrew text and the Nova Vulgata, and would also be in harmony with the norms of translation found in Liturgiam Authenticam (2001).”
Liturgiam Authenticam is at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20010507_liturgiam-authenticam_en.html and includes:
“41. The effort should be made to ensure that the translations be conformed to that understanding of biblical passages which has been handed down by liturgical use and by the tradition of the Fathers of the Church, especially as regards very important texts such as the Psalms and the readings used for the principal celebrations of the liturgical year; in these cases the greatest care is to be taken so that the translation express the traditional Christological, typological and spiritual sense, and manifest the unity and the inter-relatedness of the two Testaments.[34] For this reason:
a) it is advantageous to be guided by the Nova Vulgata wherever there is a need to choose, from among various possibilities [of translation], that one which is most suited for expressing the manner in which a text has traditionally been read and received within the Latin liturgical tradition;
b) for the same purpose, other ancient versions of the Sacred Scriptures should also be consulted, such as the Greek version of the Old Testament commonly known as the “Septuagint”, which has been used by the Christian faithful from the earliest days of the Church;[35]”
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Errham
Guest
Most Orthodox Psalters are based on the Septuagint. The one that I’d personally recommend is “The Psalter According To The Seventy” by Holy Transfiguration Monastery. It’s absolutely beautiful and written in traditional English throughout, but not the point of being unliterary. If you want to sample it, it’s the Psalter used at this Horologion as well as this one.
One thing that I’d recommend is against using the Catholic liturgical psalter. The reason for this is because the Catholic liturgical psalter actually numbers 147 psalms, not 150, and an additional 59 verses from around 15 other psalms are missing. The reason for this is that Vatican II found them to be too “damning” for liturgical use. I don’t quite agree, but it is what it is.
One thing that I’d recommend is against using the Catholic liturgical psalter. The reason for this is because the Catholic liturgical psalter actually numbers 147 psalms, not 150, and an additional 59 verses from around 15 other psalms are missing. The reason for this is that Vatican II found them to be too “damning” for liturgical use. I don’t quite agree, but it is what it is.
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Vico
Guest
The Revised Grail Psalms are used; the previous approval was from 1963 but the latest approved revised editon is from 2010, however there is another 2014 version that has bee submitted for approval. The 1963 version is based on the Jerusalem Bible (into French: 1956) which is from Greek and Hebrew texts rather than Jerome’s Vulgate.
The the 2010 and later “Abbot Gregory worked exclusively from the original Grail version and the Hebrew Massoretic and Greek Septuagint texts, with an eye to the Nova Vulgata. During the process, he conferred with the Grail, as well as Vatican and international sources, in order to create a version that would meet the requirements of Liturgiam authenticam and be suitable for English speakers throughout the world.”
giamusic.com/sacred_music/RGP/GrailHistory.cfm
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ProVobis
Guest
I don’t know if this version in English reached the St. Joseph Missals in the late 50’s because if it didn’t, it was an extremely poor and too banal (IMO) translation of the Vulgate. This particular handmissal no longer printed the propers in Latin, and it was also the missal which became allowed in the 1965 vernaculars AFAIK.
Of course, now the new Vulgate (Nova Vulgata) has been updated with the newly discovered Greek and Hebrew.
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