psychological conditioning, Mormons repeat to each other over and over again in church life, almost word for word, "...I know the Book of Mormon is tr

[Answersplease]

Why do Mormons regularly say something like “I believe that Joseph Smith is the true prophet of God, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church of God, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

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I was told that my testimony

for the whole thing (the BoM and JS) would come along. The more I would bear it, the more it would be there is what I was told. Now, years later, it almost sounds like brainwashing. But there were so many good things that I saw in the people that I figured there had to be truth in it. I think many converts get caught up in that trap.

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mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

…practice of psychological conditioning, Mormons repeat to each other over and over again in church life, almost word for word, “I know the Church is true. I know the Book of Mormon is true. I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.” Mormons are taught, “Bear your testimony often” [15].

“How do I know the church is true? Because I know the church is true.”

…M. Russell Ballard said [in a talk to the missionaries]…
He told a story of a missionary who came to him and said ‘I can’t say that I know the church is true because I don’t really know it and I feel guilty when I say it.’ Ballard (who was a mission president at the time) responded: ‘The way you gain a testimony is in the bearing of it.’ In other words he told this missionary and essentially all of us in the conference, if you don’t know the church is true just keep lying to all of your investigators and tell them you do know, until you have said it enough times that you brainwash yourself into believing it is true." [13]

One Mormon writes:

"Quite simply, you can’t have a testimony until you bear it to someone. At the moment that you tell someone that you know X is true - even if you don’t know it yet - the Spirit will testify to you that it is indeed true. It may sound a little iffy, but I can tell you that it’s true.
…

If you want to know for sure that the Church is true, tell someone else." [16]

Mormon Molly Bennion writes:

“Many have argued, often under the guise of ‘milk before meat,’ that we must not disillusion the new or weak with all-too-human history or the questioning of the Lord’s anointed–questioning being by definition under this theory, criticism, even heresy. Better the lie.”[9]

mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

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Cicero, Academica, i. 45.

"Nothing is more shameful than to affirm before knowing."

mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

So if I am to assume you would like an answer, then the answer is that the Holy Spirit will guide someone who is testifying of truth, and sometimes the person doing the teaching will have a very strong impression at the very moment they are teaching, which will let them know (if they have been paying attention) that they have just learned something “new”–something greater than the knowledge they had before. It is a case of being taught by a heavenly source, and acknowledging that and being sensitive to it.

But that kind of inspiration is not an automatic, as shown by those who have brought out websites where they essentially self-justify why they left the LDS church, and trot out all their reasons. It’s no big deal to me. It is a natural expectation that people will do exactly that.

Self-justification has been around forever on this earth–truly, since the very beginning after the fall of Eve and Adam. It is nothing new. One can see it for what it is, or not–choose as you wish.

You completely left out the part about Mormons saying their church is true even if they don’t know it yet.

Do you know there is a name for saying something is true when you don’t know it yet?

Jesus Christ, who is God Himself, is not the father of lies Parker.

Satan is the father of lies.

Answersplease,
I have been familiar with that teaching method for young people, and even though I don’t particularly agree with it, it merely means the young person will often recognize that they do “have the Spirit” with them and that it has “testified” to them about the truthfulness of the teachings, but they have to allow themselves an opportunity to bring the awareness into their conscious mind rather than it being something latent inside of their heart.

**
Lying is lying no matter what you call it or how you try to finesse it.**

John 8:44

 

[Answersplease]

“…for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things…For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:34-37)

“For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” (Matthew 13:15)

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we are all witnesses.”…“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (Acts 2:32, 37)

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them…For God, who commmanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” (2 Corinthians 4:3-6) See also 3:3 for the term, “fleshy tables of the heart.”

 

[Answersplease]

Nowhere in any of those verses in your above post, does it say, lie and then you will realize testimony from your heart that you didn’t know was there.

On the other hand, the verse in matthew 15:19 is very specific.

matthew 15:19

for out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

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mormonwiki.org/lying_for_the_lord

“What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience.” - Joseph Smith

[1]

“Address of the Prophet—His Testimony Against the Dissenters at Nauvoo”, delivered Sunday, May 26, 1844. Printed in History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-412. Available at UTLM.org. The quote is significant when one considers that Smith secretly had thirty wives at the time of the address (cf. A partial listing with dates at FamilySearch.org).

Sidney Rigdon in the 18 June 1845 ‘Messenger and Advocate’ reported that Parley P. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should sustain Smith, advised that ‘we must lie to protect brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.’

Not only were church leaders willing to violate the law to promote polygamy, they did not hesitate to blacken the character of individuals who threatened to expose the secret practice of plural marriage.
…

-Richard van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy: A History, pp. 38-39

Here’s your problem.

Joseph Smith claimed to be able to read the Kinderhook plates, which were bogus forgeries meant to fool him.

Joseph Smith had sex with the wives of other men.

Do you deny either of these points?

John 8:44

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

**Satan is the father of lies Parker.

Do you honestly think The Holy Spirit will guide someone who is lying?**

And why do they have to repeat the lie over and over? To brainwash themselves?

Why don’t they have to say the lie just once and then “get” the “testimony” from The Holy Spirit?

 

[swisscakerolls]

I stopped trying to understand all of this after the 3rd quote box. What are you arguing? It seems like you argue that Mormons are brainwashing themselves to believe in Mormonism when they have no objective way of knowing its true. Could not a similar argument be made against Catholics when we say the Nicene or Apostle’s Creeds? (Or a lot of the Mass, for that matter?) We take a lot of our beliefs on faith.

Perhaps I am not responding to your concern, but I could not decipher what your question/argument is.

 

[Answersplease]

Could not a similar argument be made against Catholics when we say the Nicene or Apostle’s Creeds? (Or a lot of the Mass, for that matter?) We take a lot of our beliefs on faith.

Answersplease:

That may be true in your case, but you cannot speak for all Christians or Catholics.

Many Christians and Catholics say or have said that they have personally witnessed miracles that directly or indirectly prove their Faith.

I heard Father Pio had a direct conversation with Saint Mary Mother of God, face to face.

I have heard Protestant Pastors and teachers say that they have performed miracles and exorcisms.

Many Protestants and Catholics say that Christianity is an experience.

Mormons on the other hand tell their children and potential converts and new converts to say they believe even if they don’t have any of BOTH subjective or objective evidence (or reasoning) about the things they say are true.

Now there are some Mormons who claim to have witnessed miracles, but I am NOT talking about that here. I am talking about Mormons telling potential converts and new converts to say they believe without any objective AND subjective evidence or reasoning.

 

[Xavierlives]

Well as I recall the original premise was that many faiths require/expect a regurgitation of some statement. The Mormon’s don’t believe in “creeds” of man, but they have generated this creed that they all basically say.

The idea (and acknowledged by the Mormons) is teach them young and they can fake it until they have “built” their testimony.

 

[why_me]

The idea (and acknowledged by the Mormons) is teach them young and they can fake it until they have “built” their testimony.

This is not exactly correct. Mormons generally say that they know their church is true during their fast and testimony meeting which occurs the first sunday of every month. Usually the person stands at the podium and relates a story that happened to him or her and then toward the close will state that they know or believe the church is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet.

It is not recommended that small children do this but it can happen. But it is discouraged. No one builds their testimony of the lds church. The testimony comes through the knowledge that it is the true church.

 

[why_me]

Perhaps I am not responding to your concern, but I could not decipher what your question/argument is.

Answersplease posting style is less than courteous. And yes, his posts are difficult to understand.

 

[Answersplease]

Answersplease posting style is less than courteous. And yes, his posts are difficult to understand.

Answersplease:

The following quotes show everything anybody needs to know.

I doubt that The Holy Spirit guides people into lying.

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Sidney Rigdon in the 18 June 1845 ‘Messenger and Advocate’ reported that Parley P. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should sustain Smith, advised that ‘we must lie to protect brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.’

Not only were church leaders willing to violate the law to promote polygamy, they did not hesitate to blacken the character of individuals who threatened to expose the secret practice of plural marriage.
…

-Richard van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy: A History, pp. 38-39

From the thread: Milk before meat (link to the thread is below)

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthrea…=411925&page=2

Post #18 (Color and underlining added to highlight the original text)
why me:

First, it is not suprising that in public JS would deny polygamy. I would have done so too

since the hatred for mormons was very real. Polygamy would have created an intolerable position for the early mormons if the cat was let out of the bag. And so, I can see denying polygamy in public. No problem.
why me:

…it is not suprising that in public JS would deny polygamy. I would have done so too

…intolerable position…if the cat was let out of the bag.

…I can see denying polygamy in public. No problem.