Psychological Testing: Seminarians

[misericordie]

Hello all, I have something that’s been bothering my mind: I recently found out that SOME new religious congregations who have recently opened up NOVITIATES and SEMINARIES in the USA are NOT requiring that their candidates get psychologically tested (by professionals). This in my opinion is very dangerous, especially in our currend scandals in the Catholic Church. I have asked some of the people in those orders and they STILL BELEIVE THERE IS NO SCANDAL OR PROBLEMS IN THE CHURCH: A DEEP CLERICALISM. One of these fairly new Institutes are located in the boundaries of the Archdiocese of Washington D.C. But also have parishes all over now in the USA.
Can some of you please tell me what you think??? Should someone write to the Cardinal Archbishop of Washington, D.C.??? I am so concerned!! PLEASE HELP!

 

[katolik]

misericordie:

Hello all, I have something that’s been bothering my mind: I recently found out that SOME new religious congregations who have recently opened up NOVITIATES and SEMINARIES in the USA are NOT requiring that their candidates get psychologically tested (by professionals). This in my opinion is very dangerous, especially in our currend scandals in the Catholic Church. I have asked some of the people in those orders and they STILL BELEIVE THERE IS NO SCANDAL OR PROBLEMS IN THE CHURCH: A DEEP CLERICALISM. One of these fairly new Institutes are located in the boundaries of the Archdiocese of Washington D.C. But also have parishes all over now in the USA.
Can some of you please tell me what you think??? Should someone write to the Cardinal Archbishop of Washington, D.C.??? I am so concerned!! PLEASE HELP!

Good riddance!!
Those psychologists have rejected men whoare truly Catholic and view celibacy as their life for many years now. God’s law is above Freud’s

 

[misericordie]

katolik:

Good riddance!!
Those psychologists have rejected men whoare truly Catholic and view celibacy as their life for many years now. God’s law is above Freud’s

Actually lets say that Those future priests who will be around our children and others, are NOT being psycologically tested BEFORE they get admitted to a Novitiate/seminary program: VERY DANGEROUS that these orders/institutes have decided NOT to require these young men from being tested: the psychologists would be more than willing to test them. Ummmm, devients may be filtered OUT by psychological testing. To not test is arrogance, and the old Clericalism spirit: the priest CAN NEVER sin type of mentality, or the laity are BELOW them in all. This is NOT reality, it is a fantasy world, as when they thought too they were above the law.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

misericordie:

Actually lets say that Those future priests who will be around our children and others, are NOT being psycologically tested BEFORE they get admitted to a Novitiate/seminary program: VERY DANGEROUS that these orders/institutes have decided NOT to require these young men from being tested: the psychologists would be more than willing to test them. Ummmm, devients may be filtered OUT by psychological testing. To not test is arrogance, and the old Clericalism spirit: the priest CAN NEVER sin type of mentality, or the laity are BELOW them in all. This is NOT reality, it is a fantasy world, as when they thought too they were above the law.

And some who did abuse children were psychologically tested. Its not fool proof.

Many very good candidates have been stained by a bad psychological test as once you are labeled bad it is hard to get that fixed.

Also I would say, that this post is nothing but hear say at the best and truly unfounded.

Please provide the names of these orders. Seminaries take those who are sponsored. If a bishop or an order sponsors someone I would think that the seminary would decide that they (the bishop or the order) has found the candidate acceptable.

So please provide proof of your statement and give us the orders and seminaries you are talking about.

 

[nordskoven]

The psychiatric community has been enriched by millions of dollars for providing a buffer zone between clerics and judicial reality. One member of the U.S.C.C.B’s lay committee is the former psych chair of Johns Hopkins, who had oversight over their pedophile-founded sex clinic. The Johns Hopkins sex clinic refused to report active pedophiles in accordance with Maryland law. Several clients have since been indicted.

But the point is, this psych chair, our lay representative, AGREED with this cover-up. That’s psych biz, on the order with NAZI doctors. One sex doc at St. Luke’s psych center said that he has never met a more hardened group of perverts than the clerics he has treated. They will not be cured. But these profit centers have made and will continue to make millions for diverting priestly perverts from prison.

Ditch the psych testing and go for lie detector tests and alcohol and drug testing. If you have concerns, or need information, ask the Papal Nuncio, the Vatican’s ambassador for the U.S.A. Address should be on the net…

May the Most High grant us only holy and virtuous priests, and make us a people who delight in emulating their virtue. AMEN

 

[misericordie]

ByzCath:

And some who did abuse children were psychologically tested. Its not fool proof.

Many very good candidates have been stained by a bad psychological test as once you are labeled bad it is hard to get that fixed.

Also I would say, that this post is nothing but hear say at the best and truly unfounded.

Please provide the names of these orders. Seminaries take those who are sponsored. If a bishop or an order sponsors someone I would think that the seminary would decide that they (the bishop or the order) has found the candidate acceptable.

So please provide proof of your statement and give us the orders and seminaries you are talking about.

Actually my friend, I cannot on this forum provide the names because I actually am EMPLOYED by one, and they may find out. If I do make this known or bring it up, it has to be to the Bishop in an anonymous way. All he would have to do is ASK the provincials and I am sure the provincial will not lie about this.
I will tell you one thing, if This cardinal has granted this Institute permission to open up a noviciate and seminary in HIS Archdiocese, and they were NOT Psychologicall tested, and DO SOMETHING negative/scandal, the media will will have a field day as they have with certain USA Bishops who in the past have just looked the other way.

 

[misericordie]

nordskoven:

The psychiatric community has been enriched by millions of dollars for providing a buffer zone between clerics and judicial reality. One member of the U.S.C.C.B’s lay committee is the former psych chair of Johns Hopkins, who had oversight over their pedophile-founded sex clinic. The Johns Hopkins sex clinic refused to report active pedophiles in accordance with Maryland law. Several clients have since been indicted.

But the point is, this psych chair, our lay representative, AGREED with this cover-up. That’s psych biz, on the order with NAZI doctors. One sex doc at St. Luke’s psych center said that he has never met a more hardened group of perverts than the clerics he has treated. They will not be cured. But these profit centers have made and will continue to make millions for diverting priestly perverts from prison.

Ditch the psych testing and go for lie detector tests and alcohol and drug testing. If you have concerns, or need information, ask the Papal Nuncio, the Vatican’s ambassador for the U.S.A. Address should be on the net…

May the Most High grant us only holy and virtuous priests, and make us a people who delight in emulating their virtue. AMEN

Thanks so much, I will cal the Papal Nuncio to ask. Also, I agree with you about alchohol/drug testing too: but Psych test IT IS A MUST NOWADAYS!! May not be all fool proof, but yes, provideds some insight. After all too: isn’t authoritarianism/clericalism a disorder of power and low self esteem?? It’s fine if they are private citizens, but these guys(and NUNS TOO) will be WITH THE PUBLIC AND ARE PUBLIC FIGURES WITH MORE THAN ORDINARY POWER OF POSITION.

 

[shannon_e]

I think testing ought to be a MUST, also !

And don’t forget that there are Psychologists out there who are also faithful Catholics.

Peace.

 

[misericordie]

shannon e:

I think testing ought to be a MUST, also !

And don’t forget that there are Psychologists out there who are also faithful Catholics.

Peace.

Thank you, yes I agree, and I have met many good faitful catholic ones. Those that don’t take this very seriously seems they still don’t accept the magnitude of the grave seriousness that those scandals in the church were/are. Why is there still so much denial??? What else must continue to happen before these Bishops and laity realize this is very serious.

 

[Church_Militant]

http://www.catholic.com/library/A_Crisis_of_Saints.asp Well worth reading.

I would dearly HOPE they would be tested by faithful Catholic shrinks because I know of one such shrink (religion unknown) who seduced a 16 year old girl that I knew who was in her care. I told the girl to stand up in her next session spit in her lesbian face, give her the finger and walk out & go home & tell her folks. She wouldn’t do it and only a federal prison term for trafficing in Cocaine has put an end to her career as a mental health counselor for troubled juveniles. This woman had done this before and that time it resulted in a false sex charge against the girl’s parents. When that was discovered, all they (her employers) did was let her go and she apparently moved here and went into practice.

Another friend says that she has been solicited for sex by several of her therapists over the years, but never exposed them. In the end you find yourself wondering just who you can trust. personally, I wouldn’t trust a shrink that I didn’t know personally.
I mean the local police force here has a strong gay presence on the force. One of whom I know for sure.

It’s a horrorshow and there’s no doubt about it. I KNOW I can trust Our Lord and His mother…

 

[puzzleannie]

Psychological testing, background checks et al are worthwhile only in relation to how completely and competently they are done, and how the information gained is used. Psychological testing in some institutions has been used to promote abnormal behavior and filter out those who are “too normal”. some companies use it to identify potential employees who are too rigid and uncompromising, for instance, to go along with questionable policies. Just doing the testing will be useless unless the results are evaluated against objective standards used for screening applicants. the problems is there are no standards, or the standards are skewed, or are ignored. For instance, testing can be used to identify those labelled homophobic because they give responses indicating a belief that homosexual activity is a perversion, to weed those people out as “pastorally insensitive”.

 

[misericordie]

Church Militant:

http://www.catholic.com/library/A_Crisis_of_Saints.asp Well worth reading.

I would dearly HOPE they would be tested by faithful Catholic shrinks because I know of one such shrink (religion unknown) who seduced a 16 year old girl that I knew who was in her care. I told the girl to stand up in her next session spit in her lesbian face, give her the finger and walk out & go home & tell her folks. She wouldn’t do it and only a federal prison term for trafficing in Cocaine has put an end to her career as a mental health counselor for troubled juveniles. This woman had done this before and that time it resulted in a false sex charge against the girl’s parents. When that was discovered, all they (her employers) did was let her go and she apparently moved here and went into practice.

Another friend says that she has been solicited for sex by several of her therapists over the years, but never exposed them. In the end you find yourself wondering just who you can trust. personally, I wouldn’t trust a shrink that I didn’t know personally.
I mean the local police force here has a strong gay presence on the force. One of whom I know for sure.

It’s a horrorshow and there’s no doubt about it. I KNOW I can trust Our Lord and His mother…

To be honest with you all this is interesting, not new, but WHAT in the world does this have to do with all faithful catholics wanting these FUTURE priests and future nuns to be tested psychologically? Seems these orders want NUMBERS, that they will go to any extent to avoid any applicant from being found inadecuate.

 

[Madaglan]

I personally think that psychological testing is not a good idea. There are many people who have psychological problems who nontheless are effective at what they do. Individuals with schizophenia, epilepsy, bipolar, anxiety or other psychological problems can still contribute their skillls to the Church. If the individuals are unfit for clerical life, then the rigors of the seminary system will naturally drop them out before they become priests.

Second, psychological testing gives just about everyone a mental illness or another. For some its social anxiety. Others, ADD. Yet a few more particular phobias. How would one determine which illnesses prevent one from enterring seminary?

One of the my priest friends, after revealing his health problems to his congregation, comitted himself for a number of months to a mental health center. He is a great guy and has helped me in my spiritual growth. I also know another priest who told me that, when he was around my age, he was extremely depressed and desired to die. My parish priest here at college told me that a seminarian he knew had schizophrenia but is now a bishop.

In any case, I understand the fear of pedophile priests; but I don’t really think that psychological testing would root them out anyhow. If the individual purposely refuses to give the psychologist any response about his homosexual tendencies, then there is really no clear way to determine if that person has homosexual interests.

 

[shannon_e]

puzzleannie:

Psychological testing, background checks et al are worthwhile only in relation to how completely and competently they are done, and how the information gained is used. Psychological testing in some institutions has been used to promote abnormal behavior and filter out those who are “too normal”. some companies use it to identify potential employees who are too rigid and uncompromising, for instance, to go along with questionable policies. Just doing the testing will be useless unless the results are evaluated against objective standards used for screening applicants. the problems is there are no standards, or the standards are skewed, or are ignored. For instance, testing can be used to identify those labelled homophobic because they give responses indicating a belief that homosexual activity is a perversion, to weed those people out as “pastorally insensitive”.

Of course even psychological testing that is done well and properly can have the results hijacked for improper and/or evil uses. But properly used and properly implemented, psych testing is an invaluable tool that could avoid a lot of future heartache or harm. (IOW, all good things are subject to being mucked up by humans, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t ever trust it)

I think it is incredibly suspicious that these new orders aren’t utilizing this valuable tool.

Peace.

 

[Church_Militant]

misericordie:

To be honest with you all this is interesting, not new, but WHAT in the world does this have to do with all faithful catholics wanting these FUTURE priests and future nuns to be tested psychologically? Seems these orders want NUMBERS, that they will go to any extent to avoid any applicant from being found inadecuate.

I don’t know if I could agree w/you that all they are concerned with is numbers. Lord knows we neeed more priests, but I don’t know if there’s any evidence that they MUST test them.
Do you have some quotes that would indicate that they are more concerned with numbers than w/the holiness of their seminarians?
I mean if they had made public statements that showed that was their focus…
I really don’t know…
What “all faithful Catholics” are you speaking for?
I’m faithful yet this is the first I’ve heard of this and the first I’ve discussed it w/anyone.
I’m not tryin’ to be “wise” or difficult, but I see a wide variety of opinions among us about stuff like this.
I don’t deny the problem, but neither do I suspect every priest of misconduct, and I still trust my bishop and his staff to do the right thing.
I pray for them all because that is what we are supposed to do.
Part of my concern is that we, here in America seem to be running to the shrinks & the cops every time someone hiccups or passes gas instead of just dealing with individual cases as they appear.
You CANNOT prevent evil…only God can and that is another reason for prayer & intercession.
If I was afraid of our clergy, I wouldn’t be a Catholic.
I’m really sorry if this rambling answer isn’t helping, but this is just how I feel.
Do we really have to police EVERYthing and EVERYone? :twocents: :ehh:

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

misericordie:

Actually my friend, I cannot on this forum provide the names because I actually am EMPLOYED by one, and they may find out. If I do make this known or bring it up, it has to be to the Bishop in an anonymous way. All he would have to do is ASK the provincials and I am sure the provincial will not lie about this.

I doubt that they would take much credence with an anonymous report. If this issue isn’t great enough for you to risk your job over, why should others risk more?

And anyways, the bishop really has no power over a religious order.

misericordie:

Thank you, yes I agree, and I have met many good faitful catholic ones. Those that don’t take this very seriously seems they still don’t accept the magnitude of the grave seriousness that those scandals in the church were/are. Why is there still so much denial??? What else must continue to happen before these Bishops and laity realize this is very serious.

I think you misunderstand me. I am not against psychological testing, I just live in the real world and realize that this, psychological testing, will not fix everything.

One must also look at the chance for “false positivies” and the possible ruined lives in men who are turned down that would never do anything wrong. Our society is not build upon the vulcan premise of “The needs of the many outway the needs of the few (or one).”

The rates of abuse in the clergy scandal were not much (if at all) greater than the rates of abuse in general society. Are we going to start psychological testing sports coaches, teachers, fathers, uncles, next door neighbors, scouting leaders, etc…

It is a complex issue. but attacking those who disagree, or those who do not think that psychological testing is the silver bullet, with you is no way to fix the issue.

I would go further that a religious order can determine things about an individual that a seminary/bishop will not as the candidate is in at least a year long pre-noviate and then moves into a year-and-a-day noviate where they are monitored closely.

 

[frdave20]

I haven’t even applied to my prospective order and I was required to have both a psychological and a psychiatric evaluation. I thought that such protocol was required by the Church, but has, in recent days, been even more emphasized… Am I wrong?

 

[Brendan]

frdave20:

I haven’t even applied to my prospective order and I was required to have both a psychological and a psychiatric evaluation. I thought that such protocol was required by the Church, but has, in recent days, been even more emphasized… Am I wrong?

Such testing is the norm in the US, as approved by the USCCB.
(I went through such testing as part of my application to the Diaconate)

But, unlike diocesean clergy, the Religious Orders do not fall under the US Bishops for their seminary and training. So a Religious Order may Ordain subject only to the Pontif.

However, a Bishop has the right to reject any Religious from operating in their diocese.

I, would, however, not place too much confidence in such testing. As stated above, the testing is by no means perfect. Part of the scandal was that priests who had molested once were given therapy by pscologists and passed the very tests given now. But they still went on to molest. Others had passed these tests but still went on to be molesters.

Yes, the Church has learned from this scandal. She’s learned not to place much confidence in these tests.

 

[Olympia]

This discussion is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic as it sinks.

The USCCB has not even made the connection yet:

Homosexuality = deviant behavior.

Most psychologists do not consider homosexual activity to be a sinful activity.

Therefore, the testing will reveal nothing and screen out nothing, all candidates will pass somehow, and be accepted into some order somewhere.

Until people stop accepting all kinds of behavior in the name of “Christian Charity,” there will be no reform.

The basic problem is theological and philosophical: if people believe that there is no sin, and that all are saved, anything and everything goes.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Although psychological testing can be a valuable tool if used properly I also think psychology has been one of the major downfalls which led to the whole abuse scandal to begin with. Instead of trusting in the guidance of Catholic sexual morality the Church got led around by the nose by an intellectual community which sees nothing wrong with homosexuality, bestiality, and all other sorts of deviant behavior. I think a seminary might be just as able to screen applicants for moral rectitude through interviews followed by close scrutiny in the seminary as would any psychologist with ties to the North American Man-Boy Love Association.