Psychologist Trains Exorcists

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valekhai said:
Out of curiosity, how do you explain miracles from non-Christian religions, such as the milk miracle or Sai Baba’s abilities?
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Why would I be trying to explain that? Being an atheist, you’re the one who needs to debunk it. :rolleyes:
 
valekhai said:
Probably not, no. I’d have to look at a particular case, but generally I’d say that just because a lot of people saw something they can’t explain doesn’t necessarily mean that they witnesses something supernatural.

I think that most people know that the magicians in Las Vegas are doing tricks with no supernatural powers involved, but we still have instances of crowds of hundreds or thousands of people witnessing the same seemingly supernatural events and having no explanation for them.

There were witnesses to alleged instances of witchcraft during the Salem Witch Trials, but most people today would say that the witnesses were lying for various motives.

Sathya Sai Baba performed miracles in front of huge crowds. You can even find videos of some of them (prepare to be underwhelmed), but you can also find people who claimed that he raised people from the dead, was seen in multiple places at once, made miraculous healings, etc. He only died a few years ago, and there are people alive today who claim to have witnessed his miracles. Would you say this is good evidence for his powers?

The Hindu Milk Miracle in 1995 was witnessed by thousands of people across India and the world. You can also find videos of it, but you won’t find many people outside of a Hindu religion who think that anything supernatural was going on there.

We also have multiple, independent reports of people being abducted by aliens. Many of the alleged abductees are still alive to share what they say they witnessed. What they claim to have experienced isn’t even supernatural. Still, they aren’t generally regarded as credible.
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Interesting. You are providing examples, however, mostly of things for which explanations have been ascertained. Based on that, it sounds like you believe the many phenomenon that have yet to find explanation in the physical sciences must therefore have an explanation that we simply have yet to find, no?

Remind me if I get to another computer to link you to an article on a medical “miracle” pertaining to Edith Stein. Or if you get a chance to study the many medical “healings” that occurred at Lourdes. Those aren’t so much “witness” based as they are medical before and afters that defy explanation.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Why would I be trying to explain that? Being an atheist, you’re the one who needs to debunk it. :rolleyes:
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It’s fine if you don’t want to share your opinion, but I don’t understand this idea that I need to debunk all these claims but you don’t need to provide any sort of explanation. You and I have different worldviews, but each of our worldviews is obligated to provide some sort of response to claims like these, no matter what religious background they come from and even if our response is an honest “I don’t know.” I don’t see why the differences between us obligate me to find an explanation but not you.

Also, you’ve implied that, since I’m an atheist, I’m too biased or too closed-minded to correctly or fairly evaluate miracle claims. Yeah, I do have a bias. I’m biased in favor of explanations for which have many examples over explanations for which we have very few (or none). I’m sure that you and I can both agree that there are charlatans that intentionally mislead people, that there are people who lie and claim to have witnessed spectacular things when they actually haven’t, that there are people who suffer from delusions or hallucinations, and that there are people who ascribe supernatural explanations to natural phenomena that they haven’t learned about yet. In light of all this, when faced with the claim of an alleged miracle, I think it’s reasonable to look for explanations of this sort before believing that something supernatural has taken place, don’t you?

Speaking of biases, don’t you have some of your own? If there is some sort of miracle attributed to Shiva, how many options would a devout Catholic have to interpret what has gone on? To appeal to one of the naturalistic explanations I’ve listed above? To claim that it was a demon? To claim that it was actually the Christian God who did it, but it was misinterpreted by Hindus? Pretty much anything except believe that it actually was a God named Shiva, right? At least I haven’t even completely shut down an option that way, even if I do have a considerable bias to overcome.
 
MarcoPolo said:
Interesting. You are providing examples, however, mostly of things for which explanations have been ascertained.
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Ascertained by whom? To me it seems that Sathya Sai Baba was obviously a fraud and a con man, but I doubt I could convince any of his thousands (if not millions) of followers of this.
MarcoPolo said:
Based on that, it sounds like you believe the many phenomenon that have yet to find explanation in the physical sciences must therefore have an explanation that we simply have yet to find, no?
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Must, not necessarily. But it is incredibly more likely. I’m a naturalist by pragmatic assumption, not so much by dogmatic assertion. All it takes is one true counterexample to debunk naturalism as a rule, but even if that did happen, assuming a natural explanation for an unexplained phenomenon is going to be the best first step to looking for the real explanation, don’t you think? Everything that we’ve ever been able to explain in any sort of verifiable way has turned out to be natural forces working on natural substances, including a great many things that were assumed to be supernatural for millennia.

And how can we even go about evaluating supernatural claims? What sort of standard of evidence can one use that would allow them to believe the healing stories of Jesus, which come to us from a few second- or third-hand sources, but discount the miraculous healings at the temples of Asclepius, which are alluded to in allegedly firsthand written testimonies spread at locations all across the Mediterranean over the course of several centuries?
 
valekhai said:
Ascertained by whom? To me it seems that Sathya Sai Baba was obviously a fraud and a con man, but I doubt I could convince any of his thousands (if not millions) of followers of this.

Must, not necessarily. But it is incredibly more likely. I’m a naturalist by pragmatic assumption, not so much by dogmatic assertion. All it takes is one true counterexample to debunk naturalism as a rule, but even if that did happen, assuming a natural explanation for an unexplained phenomenon is going to be the best first step to looking for the real explanation, don’t you think? Everything that we’ve ever been able to explain in any sort of verifiable way has turned out to be natural forces working on natural substances, including a great many things that were assumed to be supernatural for millennia.

And how can we even go about evaluating supernatural claims? What sort of standard of evidence can one use that would allow them to believe the healing stories of Jesus, which come to us from a few second- or third-hand sources, but discount the miraculous healings at the temples of Asclepius, which are alluded to in allegedly firsthand written testimonies spread at locations all across the Mediterranean over the course of several centuries?
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As an atheist, how would you evaluate supernatural events, if you were in a position to test it? Let say for example, you are present in an exorcism as a bystander. What would be proof beyond doubt that supernatural events exist WITHOUT resorting to statements like " we don’t have the technology, science to measure it, explain it? Because as long as a skeptic refuses to entertain that there are supernatural possibilities, no possible open minded discussion will be fruitful. If you are a scientist, how would you proof that supernatural hypothesis? The tests or measurements must satisfy ALL scientific/atheistic angles. The tests need not necessary be based upon physical measurements which existing equipment may not be able to measure anyway. It could be a question and answer, knowledge thing where only the supernatural may know about it, e.g. your darkest secrets.
 
ericc said:
As an atheist, how would you evaluate supernatural events, if you were in a position to test it? Let say for example, you are present in an exorcism as a bystander. What would be proof beyond doubt that supernatural events exist WITHOUT resorting to statements like " we don’t have the technology, science to measure it, explain it?
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Things like running up walls or saying things about me that no one else could know would convince me that something supernatural is going on.
 
valekhai said:
Things like running up walls or saying things about me that no one else could know would convince me that something supernatural is going on.
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Excellent! Perhaps you would care to read Fr Amorth “An Exorcist Tells His Story”?

Assuming you did witness such a supernatural event, would you still remain an atheist? Would you personally search for such evidence of supernatural events to confirm/disprove your beliefs or would you wait for such evidence to come to you?
 
ericc said:
Excellent! Perhaps you would care to read Fr Amorth “An Exorcist Tells His Story”?
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Perhaps. I just checked and none of my local libraries has it. I’m not sure I want to spend money ordering it, but I’ll look into it.
ericc said:
Assuming you did witness such a supernatural event, would you still remain an atheist?
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It would depend on the event, but probably.
ericc said:
Would you personally search for such evidence of supernatural events to confirm/disprove your beliefs or would you wait for such evidence to come to you?
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Depends on what you mean. I’m not going to become a devoted ghost hunter or anything like that, and I’m not going to call around looking for an exorcist who wants a ride-along.
I have attended various church functions in the hopes of seeing something, like faith healings and such. I was in a small group in one church where the pastor brought in some friends of his who he said could give prophetic messages. It was pretty obvious that they were just trying to cold read. And I do mean trying; nothing they said at any point resonated with anyone in the group.
I’m not sure if any of those count as me “searching” or “waiting.” Seems like an in-between.
 
valekhai said:
Things like running up walls or saying things about me that no one else could know would convince me that something supernatural is going on.
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But as an atheist you’ve already denied the existence of God. So how would you be convinced that something supernatural is going on when you don’t believe there is a God to make it go on?

The phenomenon you demand above as proof you would ultimately explain as a parlor trick.

God doesn’t do parlor tricks. Maybe the devil does? :rolleyes:
 
Charlemagne_III said:
But as an atheist you’ve already denied the existence of God. So how would you be convinced that something supernatural is going on when you don’t believe there is a God to make it go on?
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I don’t think that something supernatural has to have some sort of divine force behind it. That’s one possibility, sure, but not a necessary one. That being the case, I don’t think that being an atheist must mean that you disbelieve in all things supernatural. That’s usually the case, but not by definition.
Charlemagne_III said:
The phenomenon you demand above as proof you would ultimately explain as a parlor trick.
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Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but I think I’ll go ahead and be the judge of how I’d actually explain such an occurrence. “Parlor trick” is not my only option.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
But as an atheist you’ve already denied the existin theirnce of God. So how would you be convinced that something supernatural is going on when you don’t believe there is a God to make it go on?

The phenomenon you demand above as proof you would ultimately explain as a parlor trick.

God doesn’t do parlor tricks. Maybe the devil

Duplicate post.
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valekhai said:
I don’t think that something supernatural has to have some sort of divine force behind it. That’s one possibility, sure, but not a necessary one. That being the case, I don’t think that being an atheist must mean that you disbelieve in all things supernatural. That’s usually the case, but not by definition.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but I think I’ll go ahead and be the judge of how I’d actually explain such an occurrence. “Parlor trick” is not my only option.
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Whats wrong with you besides being an aethiest?
If you dont believe in god, how on earth would know what supernatural is?
 
valekhai said:
I don’t think that something supernatural has to have some sort of divine force behind it. That’s one possibility, sure, but not a necessary one.
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What kind of force would the supernatural have if not a divine force? It certainly can’t have a natural force because the word “supernatural” excludes natural. :confused:
 
justforme23 said:
Whats wrong with you besides being an aethiest?
If you dont believe in god, how on earth would know what supernatural is?
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Perhaps proof of the supernatural may lead him to God. God works in strange ways. However, we know that those who seek God, finds Him. Perhaps he just needed the right type of “push” to overcome his mental block. Proof of the Devil also is proof of God. Not all atheists remains atheist their whole life. C. S. Lewis is one at the top of my head.
 
ericc said:
Perhaps proof of the supernatural may lead him to God. God works in strange ways. However, we know that those who seek God, finds Him. Perhaps he just needed the right type of “push” to overcome his mental block. Proof of the Devil also is proof of God. Not all atheists remains atheist their whole life. C. S. Lewis is one at the top of my head.
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no. What leads one to god is hungering and thirsting, not needing a push needing to know anything else
that is silly.
 
justforme23 said:
no. What leads one to god is hungering and thirsting, not needing a push needing to know anything else
that is silly.
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Wow! Anything beyond hungering and thirsting for God is no go in your view? This is an elitist view. There are many that do not have this knowledge of God would have been excluded (due to upbringing, lack of education, environment etc). I don’t believe God’s grace is so limited.
 
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