Public healthcare is not anti Catholic

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In fact, you could make the argument that universal health care is actually something Jesus would support. With universal healthcare, people that are poor and would not be able to afford insurance can actually get insurance…isn’t helping the poor one of Jesus’ biggest messages?

What I am saying is that MANY countries around the world have universal healthcare and it works a lot better than America’s healthcare (before the obamaplan or whatever you want to call it). I just think that a lot of Catholics tend to lean to the right because of Republicans’ stance on abortion, and going against this healthcare is part of being conservative.

I am just wondering, for all those that do not support Obama’s healthcare plan…do you think that countries such as France, Canada, England, etc should be fighting to privatize health care? Should they be against their universal healthcare systems? If you don’t think so, then why are you so against America’s government healthcare?
 
In fact, you could make the argument that universal health care is actually something Jesus would support. With universal healthcare, people that are poor and would not be able to afford insurance can actually get insurance…isn’t helping the poor one of Jesus’ biggest messages?
Not at gunpoint or in Christ’s case, sword point. Charity, not mandatory.
 
Not at gunpoint or in Christ’s case, sword point. Charity, not mandatory.
It is mandatory, for Christians. We do not have an option when it comes to helping the poor. Jesus made that very clear.

We can debate until the cows come home about the best way to go about that (and I’m not necessarily convinced the current healthcare bill is the best way), but helping is NOT optional.
 
Helping may not be optional, but it’s not for the governments to decide how much help people are giving!!! Look at the parable of the widow who gave only a penny to help the poor. She had given more than any of the wealthy, because she gave out of her need, not her excess. Besides, you also beg the question of charity being something done out of the goodness of our hearts and love of Christ, or out of fear of arrest.

Besides, the healthcare bill leaves too much room for abortion funding to creep back in. It also pays for suicide. Most of these countries you talk about allow for federal funding of abortion or suicide. Sounds like something Jesus would oppose to me. NOTHING that helps people murder their own children is “charitable.”
 
Forced charity is a form of theft and therefore immoral.

“Public Healthcare” as was passed by the US congress recently is, in fact, immoral as it does not allow people who are opposed to it, such as Christian Scientists, to be excluded from it, violating religious freedom as well as requiring that monies paid in cover gravely immoral procedures including abortion, vasectomies, tubal ligation and other forms of birth control.
 
There is a huge difference between what is called Obamacare and providing health care for the poor.
 
Not at gunpoint or in Christ’s case, sword point. Charity, not mandatory.
Charity is mandatory for every moral person.

But,no,I do not support ObamaCare and I wouldn’t call it “charity”.
 
Not only is it anti Catholic for the reasons stated above, but it is also anti Catholic because for the Federal government to have this kind of control over health care it has to break the highest law of the land, the law that is supposed to keep the federal government in check. Catholics can not support a government that does not give consideration to it’s own laws.

newsmax.com/Headline/Andrew-Napolitano-barack-obama/2010/03/26/id/354008
 
Of course it isn’t antiCatholic. It’s eminently Catholic. It’s the idea of making basic health care into a business for profit that is antiCatholic. Those who oppose any public health care (as opposed to opposing some features of the present laws) are doing so not from Catholicism, but from Social Darwinist ideas.
 
Not at gunpoint or in Christ’s case, sword point. Charity, not mandatory.
It is mandatory, for Christians. We do not have an option when it comes to helping the poor. Jesus made that very clear.

We can debate until the cows come home about the best way to go about that (and I’m not necessarily convinced the current healthcare bill is the best way), but helping is NOT optional.
It’s called separation of Church and State. It is not up to the government to force mandatory health care on anyone, nor force others to provide it for anyone… Health care is not a “right”. Have you seen ANY of the rules and regulations for this fiasco? Fines on employers for not providing the health care the government approves of. We had the best health care system in the world. It could have used some big tweaks, yes, but not to the point of cramming this bill down our once FREE throats. I resent being told by the government that I have to do this. I resent the way in which this bill was passed, through stealth, partisan politics, bribes and what have you. Where was the transparacy promised by bo? He pushed this through just to prove he could. I resent the trillions of dollars our children and grandchildren are going to be burdened with. If this isn’t socialism, I don’t know what is.

Getting back to separation of Church and State, the State is interferring with programs which should be the responsibility of individual groups and individuals belonging to those groups ie religious groups. Christ didn’t start a government, He started a faith. One of his messages was for us to support the poor and needy. He didn’t say the government should force this care on us. We individuals are responsible for our own actions. Are we all going to be saved spiritually by this action of the government? Will this make us a better people? Will we be rewarded by God for this indirect action that should be a result of our own direct actions to help those less fortunate than we?

Isn’t this a bit topsy turvy.? The Church suggests good actions (for the sake of our souls) and we ignore it. The government demands (for what?) and we get fined, or shut out if we don’t obey because we are concerned about what may happen if we don’t follow bo over the cliff.

500 billion dollars are being taken away from Medicaire. What will happen to the elderly? A slow form of euthanasia?? This bill is as evil as it gets and some people are rejoicing because the government is going to control their lives. Go figure.
 
I totally agree with the OP. Jesus wanted us to look after the vulnerable and be truly pro-life - so all true Christians should support public healthcare.
 
I totally agree with the OP. Jesus wanted us to look after the vulnerable and be truly pro-life - so all true Christians should support public healthcare.
Since I am going to have to pay for it, I think I should have a voice in it. It is illegal socialism, period.
 
I totally agree with the OP. Jesus wanted us to look after the vulnerable and be truly pro-life - so all true Christians should support public healthcare.
Of course it isn’t antiCatholic. It’s eminently Catholic. It’s the idea of making basic health care into a business for profit that is antiCatholic. Those who oppose any public health care (as opposed to opposing some features of the present laws) are doing so not from Catholicism, but from Social Darwinist ideas.
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I am just wondering, for all those that do not support Obama’s healthcare plan…do you think that countries such as France, Canada, England, etc should be fighting to privatize health care? Should they be against their universal healthcare systems? If you don’t think so, then why are you so against America’s government healthcare?
First of all, I am an opponent of Obamacare.

I do not, however, think that our method of financing health care is good. I also think that this lack of goodness in how it’s paid for has pushed the method of providing the health care is less good than it should be.

I always attempt to formulate my ideas about how society should exist based upon the principles of Catholic Social Doctrine. Those principles are:
  1. Affirming the dignity of the human person in all that we do
  2. Promotion of the common good
  3. Recognizing the universal destination of goods and affirming the preferential option for the poor.
  4. Realizing the importance of programs that promote subsidiarity
  5. Realizing the importance of us *all *having **solidarity **one with another
  6. Understanding that the above is only possible with the active participationof all members of the society
I believe that a health care system that is centrally administered (along with any social program that is centrally administered) violate each and every one of those principles. I believe that our health care system, which is formulated around large insurance plans, violates the above. I believe that Obamacare, which increases the centralized control of the system, will take the system farther away from where it should be, rather than taking it in the right direction.

Do you realize that it is impossible for a health care provider to donate his services on a tax-deductible basis to use his skills to care for the poor? If you take a look at IRS publication 526, you will find that the value of your time and/or services are not deductible…and even if they were, donations to individuals, no matter how needy, are not deductible as charitable donations.

I personally know both doctors and dentists who care for the indigent as they are able, even though it is basically discouraged by the above government taxation policy. What I’m told is that they basically have to write off those services. What would happen if those providers were able to deduct their expenses for those who could not pay as charitable donations? (Naturally, no doctor would be able to do an excessive amount, as the bills would still need to be paid…but some could be done)

Just think about that one little change in terms of the principles of solidarity and participation. To say nothing of subsidiarity.

Most doctors are in their business because they want to be healers, not because they want to be the super-rich (the super-rich become lawyers or CEOs…not doctors). Why not encourage that to support the common good and the preferential option for the poor through tax policy…rather than to implement a system that will actually discourage volunteerism?

As far as how other countries do it…well, I lived in Europe for 9 years. The German system would probably not be all that bad. But you’ve got to keep in mind that our culture is not the German culture. And I’m not sure it would work over here. As for the Italian and Turkish systems: one thing to keep in mind is that those countries have basically two different systems: one for the rich and one for everybody else. That will likely be how ours turns out after all is said and done. While both were technically competent, let us say that the second one (the system for everybody else) did not exactly support the dignity of the human person.

I think we can do a lot better and have a system that supports all of the principles of Catholic Social Doctrine. But we need to reverse the course taken, not just to repeal Obamacare but to dismantling the existing over-centralized system that we have in place in favor of one that is truly distributionist in nature.
 
In fact, you could make the argument that universal health care is actually something Jesus would support. With universal healthcare, people that are poor and would not be able to afford insurance can actually get insurance…isn’t helping the poor one of Jesus’ biggest messages?

What I am saying is that MANY countries around the world have universal healthcare and it works a lot better than America’s healthcare (before the obamaplan or whatever you want to call it). I just think that a lot of Catholics tend to lean to the right because of Republicans’ stance on abortion, and going against this healthcare is part of being conservative.

I am just wondering, for all those that do not support Obama’s healthcare plan…do you think that countries such as France, Canada, England, etc should be fighting to privatize health care? Should they be against their universal healthcare systems? If you don’t think so, then why are you so against America’s government healthcare?
Having lived out of country much of my life, I can tell you that if all of this continues with what obama is calling “health care” (and didn’t you just love the way Pelosi said, you have to pass this through so that you’ll be able to see how great it is - logic in that woman is found no where) - most of my friends in the UK do use private doctors - why? because the average doctor with the healthcare either takes forever to see or isn’t someone they feel they trust. Why do you think so many people come to Canada for surgery in the US. Not to mention that forcing my family to fork out $1500 for what I already have and shouldn’t have to pay for is out right stealing. If it wasn’t, why would Obama just have had 16,000 new workers hired by the IRS to regulate that everyone pays this? I think dealing with health care should have health care workers - IMHO. Also, if this is so great, then why is congress trying to get it passed that they’re exempt from using this “health care”?
God Bless
Rye
 
Since I am going to have to pay for it, I think I should have a voice in it. It is illegal socialism, period.
lol…You are saying “I have enough money to live comfortably and pay taxes so that other less fortunate people can have healthcare like myself…but I don’t want to do this.”
 
I totally agree with the OP. Jesus wanted us to look after the vulnerable and be truly pro-life - so all true Christians should support public healthcare.
Half right.

We have a responsibility to the poor, the marginalized, the sick, the hungry.

Concluding from that “public healthcare” - just another name for socialized medicine - is moral is more than a stretch. All true Christians, certainly all true Catholics should oppose it:

“…Socialism…cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.
QUADRAGESIMO ANNO, 117, Encyclical of Pope Pius XI
Reconstruction of the Social Order, May 15, 1931

“…no Catholic [can] subscribe even to moderate Socialism.
MATER ET MAGISTRA, 34, Pope John XXIII
On Christianity and Social Progress, May 15, 1961

Socialists…debase the natural union of man and woman…the [family] bond they…deliver up to lust. Lured…by the greed of present goods…they assail the right of property. While they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title, by labor, or by thrift.
QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS, 1, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII
On Socialism, December 28, 1878

(quotes compiled by ibkc)
 
lol…You are saying “I have enough money to live comfortably and pay taxes so that other less fortunate people can have healthcare like myself…but I don’t want to do this.”
No, that is not what he is saying. He is saying that he, like all citizens in a republic, should have a voice in the laws that are passed. He objects to Congress doing this against the will of the people.

Forced charity is not charity but theft.

Charitable actions need to be a moral choice and made, or rejected, by the individuals free will. If that were not true, you could simply ensure people do not sin by passing a law.

Supporter of this law are supporters of abortion, contraception and the violating religious liberty. There is no getting away from that. A supporter can try to rationalize this all they want, but in the end, if a person supports this law, they are supporting grave immorality.
 
Half right.

We have a responsibility to the poor, the marginalized, the sick, the hungry.

Concluding from that “public healthcare” - just another name for socialized medicine - is moral is more than a stretch. All true Christians, certainly all true Catholics should oppose it:
“…Socialism…cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.
QUADRAGESIMO ANNO, 117, Encyclical of Pope Pius XI
Reconstruction of the Social Order, May 15, 1931

“…no Catholic [can] subscribe even to moderate Socialism.
MATER ET MAGISTRA, 34, Pope John XXIII
On Christianity and Social Progress, May 15, 1961

Socialists…debase the natural union of man and woman…the [family] bond they…deliver up to lust. Lured…by the greed of present goods…they assail the right of property. While they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title, by labor, or by thrift.
QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS, 1, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII
On Socialism, December 28, 1878(quotes compiled by ibkc)
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As a citizen & resident of countries that have had public healthcare for many years,permit me to offer an outsiders view.
The state can be run on either of two extreme positions, either the polity has to support the state or the state has to support the polity. Now common sense tells you that unless you have some sort of inexhaustible wealth,the latter option is doomed.Likewise,the state demanding everything from the people,while giving nothing in return is also doomed to failure in any number of ways (rebellion,internal collapse).Logically then a state must be some where between the two,where the people and the state are mutually supportive. Public healthcare works on the premise that you work and pay taxes & should you get ill or injured some of the taxes you paid will be used to heal you.This means you can go on earning money to support yourself and the country.
American health care,whilst not the worst is most definitely not the best.
For example,I have Crohns and last year I had an operation.I joined a group on facebook for people who have IBD and I looked through the photos of scars with horror.Many of them were done in the US and they looked amateurish,compared to my neat scar done by a publicly funded Dr at Waikato Hospital.
The other issue with current health care is insurance. I have read many stories about companies that refuse to pay out when you get sick or won’t sign you on if you already are.I also know many cannot even afford the most basic insurance.Furthermore,I cannot fathom how health became a commodity to be bought and sold! This is a sign of rampant commercialisation.The idea that everything & everyone has a price,especially when applied to human dignity and health strips people of their inherent value as Humans.
As I understand it,the crux of the matter is that the Bill allows for public funding of procedures the are objectively immoral. I wish to say that ours is not to to attempt to impose our views on others but,by preaching and teaching,convince others of the Truth. We wouldn’t like it if we were forced to abide by laws contrary to our conscience would we?Nor would those who mistakenly support immorality.
When public health care was introduced into Britain,there was a massive uproar,not unlike that happening in the US today.There were similar arguments used then,but now not a single party has any (public) plans to end the NHS.Public health care is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination,but it does level the playing field whilst still allowing the wealthy to pay for private care.

So in closing,do not let political ideologies or mistaken attempts to create a Theocracy in a pluralist society stop you from creating a more Just society.:signofcross:
 
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