"Public" vs "Private" revelation?

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gazelam

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In response to an LDS poster Nickerman who asserted that God speaks to His chosen servants today, Catholic poster zaffiroborant responded that the Christian view is the same. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=753326&page=2#22

catholic.com/tracts/private-revelation indicates that public revelation is binding on the faithful and is complete. And that private revelation can “help live more fully by it [Christ’s definitive revelation] in a certain period of history.” Taking the example of selecting a new Pope, do the Cardinals expect to be receiving any revelation (i.e., communication from a divine source) regarding who they choose? This definition seems to rule out any divine guidance for Pope selection as being “public”. Could this divine guidance be considered “private”, since “public” revelation is complete? If private, then wouldn’t the selection of the new Pope be non-binding on the faithful? Is it possible that I misunderstand how the term “revelation” is used in this case and that the divine guidance the Cardinal are seeing is not revelation, but called by another term or phrase? Last, is it possible that the Cardinals are not expected to seek Heaven’s will in the matter, but to just use their best judgement when voting? Thanks in advance.
 
gazelam said:
In response to an LDS poster Nickerman who asserted that God speaks to His chosen servants today, Catholic poster zaffiroborant responded that the Christian view is the same. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=753326&page=2#22

catholic.com/tracts/private-revelation indicates that public revelation is binding on the faithful and is complete. And that private revelation can “help live more fully by it [Christ’s definitive revelation] in a certain period of history.” Taking the example of selecting a new Pope, do the Cardinals expect to be receiving any revelation (i.e., communication from a divine source) regarding who they choose? This definition seems to rule out any divine guidance for Pope selection as being “public”. Could this divine guidance be considered “private”, since “public” revelation is complete? If private, then wouldn’t the selection of the new Pope be non-binding on the faithful? Is it possible that I misunderstand how the term “revelation” is used in this case and that the divine guidance the Cardinal are seeing is not revelation, but called by another term or phrase? Last, is it possible that the Cardinals are not expected to seek Heaven’s will in the matter, but to just use their best judgement when voting? Thanks in advance.
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Public Revelation is over…

“In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.” St John of the Cross-CCC
 
The last revelation of God to man was Jesus Christ. His words, as given to us through the Church he founded is that revelation which will not and cannot be changed because it is eternal not finite, given to us by God and not man. This is what you are terming “public” revelation.

It will take no special revelation to elected a new pope. The cardinals will certainly pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their deliberations and in their voting. The Spirit of God need not speak to anyone, but move among the cardinals as they cooperate with Him.

Private revelations are apparitions, visions, locutions, etc. In order to be propagated among the faithful they must be approved by the local bishop as “worthy of belief”. But no Catholic is bound to follow the such messages or believe in apparitions because they are not part of the public revelation of Christ.

I hope that helps. Others will explain it better than I. 🙂
 
The election of the Pope guided by the HS is Public Revelation and the indefectibility of the Church.

Matthew
 
GaryTaylor said:
The election of the Pope guided by the HS is Public Revelation and the indefectibility of the Church.

Matthew
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Well, Jesus never instituted an election process for deciding the next Bishop of Rome, but it has to be done somehow. The office of the pope is certainly part of public revelation, and whoever occupies it certainly is the pope, but the election itself is merely the means by which he is chosen, no doubt guided by the Holy Spirit as the cardinals pray and discuss the matter.
 
gazelam said:
In response to an LDS poster Nickerman who asserted that God speaks to His chosen servants today, Catholic poster zaffiroborant responded that the Christian view is the same. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=753326&page=2#22

catholic.com/tracts/private-revelation indicates that public revelation is binding on the faithful and is complete. And that private revelation can “help live more fully by it [Christ’s definitive revelation] in a certain period of history.”

I think your understanding of “revelation” is different from that of catholics.
Taking the example of selecting a new Pope, do the Cardinals expect to be receiving any revelation (i.e., communication from a divine source) regarding who they choose?
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Della said:
Well, Jesus never instituted an election process for deciding the next Bishop of Rome, but it has to be done somehow. The office of the pope is certainly part of public revelation, and whoever occupies it certainly is the pope, but the election itself is merely the means by which he is chosen, no doubt guided by the Holy Spirit as the cardinals pray and discuss the matter.
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They don’t need to; that was perfect! 👍
 
Della said:
The last revelation of God to man was Jesus Christ. His words, as given to us through the Church he founded is that revelation which will not and cannot be changed because it is eternal not finite, given to us by God and not man. This is what you are terming “public” revelation.

It will take no special revelation to elected a new pope. The cardinals will certainly pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their deliberations and in their voting. The Spirit of God need not speak to anyone, but move among the cardinals as they cooperate with Him.

Private revelations are apparitions, visions, locutions, etc. In order to be propagated among the faithful they must be approved by the local bishop as “worthy of belief”. But no Catholic is bound to follow the such messages or believe in apparitions because they are not part of the public revelation of Christ.

I hope that helps. Others will explain it better than I. 🙂
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They don’t need to. That was perfect! 👍
 
Private revelation must never contradict public revelation regarding the full deposit of faith in Jesus Christ.

The messages of Fatima had prophetic elements that were proved…where Mary of Fatima appeared to 3 children in Portugal predicting wars the cause of sin, that if people did not return to God a worse war would come, and it would be signaled by strange lights in the sky (WW2), the suffering of the Holy Father, and to pray for the conversion of Russia…this all being given in 1917…or else Russia would spread her errors throughout the world, and various nations could be annihilated.

Catholics are not bound to believe in Our Lady of Fatima, as it is private revelation, but they should. Only 5% of Catholics knew about the messages, but they do now. JP II attributes Mary saving his life on the feast of the first apparition, May 13.

Her final visit was Oct 13 with the miracle of the sun. I visited Fatima in 1973, and my friends pointed out to me a smiling elderly man of 92 who was there and saw the miracle of the sun, along with many atheists…total of 70,000 present who all converted to God.
 
Part of why a private revelation is approved, it points back to the deposit of faith, as with Fatima

.Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. 67-CCC
 
gazelam said:
In response to an LDS poster Nickerman who asserted that God speaks to His chosen servants today, Catholic poster zaffiroborant responded that the Christian view is the same. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=753326&page=2#22

catholic.com/tracts/private-revelation indicates that public revelation is binding on the faithful and is complete. And that private revelation can “help live more fully by it [Christ’s definitive revelation] in a certain period of history.” Taking the example of selecting a new Pope, do the Cardinals expect to be receiving any revelation (i.e., communication from a divine source) regarding who they choose? This definition seems to rule out any divine guidance for Pope selection as being “public”. Could this divine guidance be considered “private”, since “public” revelation is complete? If private, then wouldn’t the selection of the new Pope be non-binding on the faithful? Is it possible that I misunderstand how the term “revelation” is used in this case and that the divine guidance the Cardinal are seeing is not revelation, but called by another term or phrase? Last, is it possible that the Cardinals are not expected to seek Heaven’s will in the matter, but to just use their best judgement when voting? Thanks in advance.
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I recommend you read Dei Verbum.

I think a difference between LDS and Catholic in the discussion of revelation, is that Catholics understand Jesus Christ as an on-going Revelation, one that never ceases, is witnessed to us by the Holy Spirit and made present physically to the world via the Church. We are, by our baptism, made participants in the prophetic office of Jesus Christ, we share in the fulfillment of prophecy itself. Jesus Christ is the center of our faith, the revealed Word of God, Who we seek to follow.

LDS seem to take the view the Revelation of Jesus Christ ceased at His resurrection and ascension, and so LDS believe we need OT type prophets, when it is clear to us that Christ is God’s perfect Word, Revealed.

As to the selection of the Pope, the conclave is a process of prayer, worship and discernment. Most certainly Catholic teaching and belief is that the Holy Spirit guides Christ’s Church.

That isn’t to say we don’t believe in the gift of prophecy, because we do. It is one of many gifts that the Holy Spirit can bestow. It isn’t a requirement for the Pope to be a person who has received the gift of prophecy. It isn’t required that a person be a Pope, or clergyman, to receive the gift of prophecy.

Luke 2:36-38 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that tlooked for redemption in Jerusalem.
 
GaryTaylor said:
The election of the Pope guided by the HS is Public Revelation and the indefectibility of the Church.

Matthew
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During these periods there seems to be a lot of talk about the role of the Spirit in the selection of the pope and I have to wonder if things don’t get overstated in the process. I certainly think that the Spirit offers guidance just as God offers graces to all, but I don’t think it is irresistable. So often in the history of the Church it has been apparent that the electors ignored any guidance and selected somebody who was awful. While in a sense we can see that as God’s will, I am uncomfortable thinking that God actually actively guided people into choosing some of the really terrible popes which have at various times been selected. And bad popes hardly seems an example of the indefectibility of the Church. Rather, it seems to me an example of sin and human resistance to grace and guidance which is otherwise available.

In neither case, however, would I think we could list the selection of popes as “Public Revelation.” That ceased with the apostles, and if such were true then there would have never been popes.
 
Thanks for the generous responses! It seems that Catholic usage of “revelation” may not include some or all daily guidance a church official may receive from the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean that Catholics reject additional divine guidance above and beyond revelation.
 
gazelam said:
Thanks for the generous responses! It seems that Catholic usage of “revelation” may not include some or all daily guidance a church official may receive from the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean that Catholics reject additional divine guidance above and beyond revelation.
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The Church is the Body of Christ, the Head of the Body is Jesus, the Body itself is all the baptized, who conformed to Christ are one Body. The Fathers of the Church compared the Holy Spirit, which is present in the Body of Christ, to the the soul of a man. It is the Spirit that renews the Church, gives it life, and guides it in its pilgrim journey to the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God.

From Lumen Gentium

The Spirit dwells in the Church and in the hearts of the faithful, as in a temple. In them He prays on their behalf and bears witness to the fact that they are adopted sons. The Church, which the Spirit guides in way of all truth and which He unified in communion and in works of ministry, He both equips and directs with hierarchical and charismatic gifts and adorns with His fruits. By the power of the Gospel He makes the Church keep the freshness of youth. Uninterruptedly He renews it and leads it to perfect union with its Spouse. The Spirit and the Bride both say to Jesus, the Lord, “Come!”
 
cothrige said:
During these periods there seems to be a lot of talk about the role of the Spirit in the selection of the pope and I have to wonder if things don’t get overstated in the process. I certainly think that the Spirit offers guidance just as God offers graces to all, but I don’t think it is irresistable. So often in the history of the Church it has been apparent that the electors ignored any guidance and selected somebody who was awful. While in a sense we can see that as God’s will, I am uncomfortable thinking that God actually actively guided people into choosing some of the really terrible popes which have at various times been selected. And bad popes hardly seems an example of the indefectibility of the Church. Rather, it seems to me an example of sin and human resistance to grace and guidance which is otherwise available.

In neither case, however, would I think we could list the selection of popes as “Public Revelation.” That ceased with the apostles, and if such were true then there would have never been popes.
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You are un-certain? It is deeply rooted in Public Revelation/Matthew. V-I and V-II

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope

The past, is a known, as is the bloodline of Christ in Matthew. Was His bloodline guided by the HS?

The future I don’t speculate on, I pray “Thy Will be Done” not mine, not mans.
 
gazelam said:
but that does not mean that Catholics reject additional divine guidance above and beyond revelation.
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Already addressed, it means as the Church states…

“Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.” 67-CCC

“In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.” St John of the Cross-CCC
 
GaryTaylor said:
The election of the Pope guided by the HS is Public Revelation and the indefectibility of the Church.

Matthew
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The election of an LDS “prophet” depends on: race, last name and ties to original members, money, and the order of death.
 
TexanKnight said:
The election of an LDS “prophet” depends on: race, last name and ties to original members, money, and the order of death.
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I find the whole thing amazing. Revelation? Another version of the latest edition testament. Course that’s to go “along” with your Bible. 😃
 
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