Punishments in Leviticus 20

[Telstar]

Being in a position or not, to accept or not doesn’t mean one should be taught to kill another person for a sin. So what your saying is God could only teach people to kill each other over certain sins at that time.

God did not teach them to kill sinners, just for the sake of killing them. God commanded them to kill for the sake of protecting their growing society from the kind of corruption that those types of sins cause. You seem to have the notion that this was being sanctioned as an unjust act of vengeance by God. It was not. It was done in order to protect His chosen people from degenerating into far more barbaric practices that many pagan people around them were practicing at that time. Like sacrificing their own children to pagan “gods” in order to gain special favors. God was trying to protect them from those evil influences. It was meant more as a deterrent.

But God had taught that people should be put to death from the time of Moses, even when Jesus had folllowers they still murdered people, that is why I don’t fully believe God taught people to kill each other over sin, land or whatever humans deem belongs to them.

You’ll notice that the Jews brought the “woman caught in adultery” to Jesus, because He was considered to be a teacher (Rabbi) who would have a certain amount of authority among them. Of course, they only did it to test Jesus. But, it was customary for someone with authority to make a judgement in such a case. They didn’t just start hurling rocks at someone without there being some sort of ‘trial’. You seem to think they just killed people at random just because they suspected they had committed some kind of sin. It wasn’t like that, at all. God made laws for His people in the same way that men make laws, today. Except, God’s laws are always just, but the same cannot be said about the laws of men.

But he wasn’t accepting people were they were in their sin, he was commanding they be killed for a number of sins.

How do you know that God, in His mercy, didn’t allow them to be killed as a means of punishing them in this life, so they could be saved from damnation in the next? We should always remember that God’s ways are not our ways, and our ways are not God’s ways.

 

[Gorgias]

I think it was Jesus’ take too, I don’t recall him calling anyone to be put to death for any sin?

I recall him telling Peter “what you bind on earth, is bound in heaven.”

I don’t believe it was necessarily from God

So… what you’re saying is that they made it all up? That’s a tough one to get a Christian to believe. Moreover, you can claim it, but without any proof… it’s just one opinion.

I meant Jesus’ own followers still were of the mind to kill others in the name of God.

Like that’s changed in 2000 years?

We believe God works with us where we are now, he doesn’t ask that we be put to death, not at all like Lev.

Because that’s not where we are now!

 

[Cathoholic]

simpleas . . .

God’s commands were to kill people who broke any of the laws he deemed suitable for humans to flourish.

WHY during the Old Testament times do you think God did this simpleas?

.

You also said . . . .

If God’s word is eternal he has changed his teachings along the way…

.

Not necessarily.

WHO else in your observations COULD have undergone that dramatic change OTHER than God? (From Old Testament times to the New Covenant)

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[simpleas]

As for capital punishment when the temple was destroyed they lost their ability to do those things. The people scattered to other courses where you could not do those things. Scholars decided centuries ago it was better for a thousand not to be punished than one innocent person be guilty. So made the conditions of convictions harder to follow through with. A lot of Jewish law is based on the Talmud which came after the Torah and e catholic know little about it.

Thanks.

This does make some sense, I have read that the animal sacrifices stopped because their temple was destroyed and so if the temple was a place were they judged people for sins as described in Lev I can understand why such punishments were no longer carried out because they could not meet to carry out that duty.

I don’t know if this means that Lev for Jewish people still stands really, and those punishments, as they are awaiting the Messiah who will rebuild the temple.

 

[simpleas]

How do you know that God, in His mercy, didn’t allow them to be killed as a means of punishing them in this life, so they could be saved from damnation in the next?

I don’t know, and don’t pretend too.

Just glad Jewish people no longer use those punishments of death even though God didn’t tell them to stop.

 

[simpleas]

WHY during the Old Testament times do you think God did this simpleas?

I don’t, I’m having a hard time believing it was God.

Not necessarily.

WHO else in your observations COULD have undergone that dramatic change OTHER than God? (From Old Testament times to the New Covenant)

Not sure I follow. God doesn’t change, people do, so if we are now living in times that are of God still, we have changed our opinion, faith about the creator. God has been thought of as vengeful in past days, to now, more merciful and loving, who decides that? The individual person…

 

[Cathoholic]

simpleas . . .

God’s commands were to kill people who broke any of the laws he deemed suitable for humans to flourish.

Cathoholic . . .

WHY during the Old Testament times do you think God did this simpleas?

simpleas . . .

I don’t, I’m having a hard time believing it was God.

Presumably you were saying . . . .

I don’t think God did this, I’m having a hard time believing it was God.

.

This is the basic error of atheism.

That is, atheistic religious adherants believe in no truths that are ABOVE reason.

I am not saying YOU are an atheist simpleas. No.

These atheistic IDEAS have permeated society and many have unwittingly imbibed at least some ideas of the atheistic religion.

The denial of truths ABOVE reason is the most basic error of the atheistic religion.

All other atheistic errors metastasize out of this phony premise.

This “Why-did-God-command-this-?” or “that” motif is a MYSTERY.

Mysteries can and should be probed, but we can never fully understand them (at least in THIS life).

These commands of God are not contrary to reason,
but they are ABOVE reason.

The aspect of them that we can easily understand though is the PRINCIPLE.

That is, although man cannot draw a greater good from this or that event, God CAN draw a greater good!

“God’s commands . . . to-kill-people-who-broke-any-of-the-laws-he-deemed-suitable-for-humans-to-flourish”
in SOME Old Testament times were
ultimately to draw a GREATER GOOD from this.

WHY do you think these apparent harsh commands could have been appropriate THEN in the OLD Covenant end-time era?

WHY do you think these commands are NOT employed NOW in the NEW Covenant end-time era?

What do you think we can learn from those Old Covenant admonitions and how can we still apply it personally to ourselves in the New Covenant today?

 

[Cathoholic]

simpleas. You also said . . . .

If God’s word is eternal he has changed his teachings along the way…

.

Cathoholic . . .

Not necessarily.

WHO else in your observations COULD have undergone that dramatic change OTHER than God? (From Old Testament times to the New Covenant)

.

simpleas . . .

Not sure I follow. God doesn’t change, people do . . .

Do you think Christianity teaches there has been a basic transformation of the world in From the Old Covenant eras, as opposed to the New Covenant era?

If so, WHY do you assume it is God that has changed?

 

[simpleas]

I don’t think people can be compared to an atheist because they ponder and question some of the writings in the Old Testament that don’t reflect 100% the God of the New.
An atheist means to me, one who does not believe in God or any deity.
(I know you aren’t saying I’m an atheist)

 

[simpleas]

I don’t assume God has changed, in fact I believe it is humans who have changed in our thinking of God.
The God of the OT in some writings is described as vengeful, permitting the death of outsiders that did not comply with ‘his’ rules, all to benefit one tribe of people.
The God of the NT is described as merciful, forgiving in most all writing, and showing this will benefit all people.
I just can’t put the two together at the moment.

 

[kainosktisis]

If so, WHY do you assume it is God that has changed ?

This is an interesting point. The Scriptures tell us that God never changes: He is the same, yesterday, today, & forever. Given that He never changes, something else has changed. I view it more like the circumstances by which we commune with Him have changed.

From the Knox Bible (New Advent Website) - Psalm 102:

24 Here, on my journey, he has brought my strength to an end, cut short my days.
25 What, my God, wilt thou snatch me away, my life half done? Age after age thy years endure;
26 it was thou, Lord, that didst lay the foundations of earth when time began, it was thy hand that built the heavens.
27 They will perish, but thou wilt remain; they will all be like a cloak that grows threadbare, and thou wilt lay them aside like a garment, and exchange them for new;
28 thou art unchanging, thy years can never fail.

 

[Cathoholic]

simpleas . . .

I don’t think people can be compared to an atheist

Then you went on to say . . .

(I know you aren’t saying I’m an atheist)

.

I not only said that, I said Atheistic IDEAS have permeated our society.

Nothing at all to do with you simpleas.

Lot’s to do with the ideas.

 

[Cathoholic]

simpleas . . .

I don’t assume God has changed, in fact I believe it is humans who have changed in our thinking of God.

You are on the right track here.

But go further.

Humans HAVE changed in our thinking of God.

But is there ANY other way humans have changed in the New Covenant era?

 

[Sedona]

I think that everyone has their own encounter with God, and therefore God becomes one of the great mysteries of the universe that defy intellect, and this might be because of God’s multifarious manifestations. Specifically, I think God is revealed in too many ways to be said to be either this or that, yet at the same time is in fact both this and that; for instance, nearer than the breath and farther than the most distant star. I don’t think it’s something we can come to terms with on the level of the intellect, but can be known by opening up to the felt presence of immediate experience. In short, I think God can be known through encounter, but to do that I would imagine that we have to be willing to let go of our ideas, dogmas, theology and expectations, and let the encounters happen. And I’m certainly not saying that’s easy, and it’s likely that the smarter one is, the harder it is to do, but it’s nonetheless true that over time we tend to see what whatever it is our minds are fixed on. But we have to know where to look, and I think that’s probably right here and right now.

So, after I’ve rambled on a bit, you may wonder how I think any of this fits the discussion, and what I’m offering is quite simple. The authors of the Old Testament described the only sort if God they were capable of encountering, and coming from a patriarchal, xenophobic and rather brutal world, they found in God what they were able to see. The relationship between God and any living creature is a two way proposition, and none of it happens without you. Without someone to experience God, then even the idea is superfluous. You are what turns photons into a world of objects to be seen, and likewise you are what turns vibrations into a world to be heard. It follows that if only St. Augustine’s view or Old Testament author’s view, or church council’s view were a complete package on God, then there would be no need for you or me, yet, here we are, and we’re making it happen every day. I imagine that God is in everything around you, and whatever sorts of encounters you’re making with them is the kind of God you’re meeting, and it follows that you are meeting something profoundly different from what an iron age Jew was running into. This in turn means that nothing in this world, no matter how good or bad, came to be outside the intent of the one who set the parameters. Good and evil didn’t pop up independently of the what made the world come to be. Good and bad are existential imperatives to one another, and they wait to be extracted by an experiencer, and we are the point of actualization that collapses potentials into realities, or where the rubber hits the road. We are seeing whatever world and whatever permutation of God we are able to see and there is no outcome that is not a reflection of the design. Heaven and hell are in my thinking not places but states of being, and we are deciding everyday (usually unconsciously) which one we’re in. These are offered only as my thoughts and reasoning, and not as any sort of statement on how things actually are. That is something I can’t claim to know. I am open to thoughts on these matters.

Thanks as always!

 

[Cathoholic]

kainosktisis . . .

The Scriptures tell us that God never changes . . .

That is correct.

So if God DIDN’T change, it MUST have been mankind who has CHANGED.

Then the question focuses around man and HOW and WHY man changed.

 

[meltzerboy2]

And this is an overgeneralization, often stated but not really correct. The G-d of the OT is BOTH just and merciful: a close reading of the OT reveals this. The G-d of the NT (same G-d BTW) is also BOTH just and merciful: again, a close reading reveals this. There is NO change in G-d’s justice and mercy.

 

[Gorgias]

I don’t assume God has changed, in fact I believe it is humans who have changed in our thinking of God.

That’s a fascinating perspective.

When you were an infant, and you learned to eat on your own, and your mom stopped hand-feeding you… was it your thinking on her that had changed, or was it you who had changed?

 

[simpleas]

That is why I said some writings in the OT. I’m aware of the beautiful passages that show the love and mercy of God.

Reading of a God that instructs his children to put each other to death for some small action (seems small to us now, but may have been very important to the people of that day) to reading of a God that instructs his children to love one another, the stranger, the outsider to the community, changes God in a way. We can say we now think of God differently, but that doesn’t remove the fact that God ‘himself’ spoke all these words if we truly believe that God did instruct all the teachings.

Could you possibly answer that question I posed a few posts back. I wanted to understand why the punishments do not stand now for certain sins, is it to do with the Temple being destroyed and so the structure of society changed, or is there a scripture writing that points to God asking for forgiveness or each other and having a mercy that does not take the life of another?

Thanks.

 

[simpleas]

So, after I’ve rambled on a bit, you may wonder how I think any of this fits the discussion, and what I’m offering is quite simple. The authors of the Old Testament described the only sort if God they were capable of encountering, and coming from a patriarchal, xenophobic and rather brutal world, they found in God what they were able to see.

And so doesn’t that thought suggest that the people wrote the rules in Gods name because that is what they thought God would want for his people?
Some people also wrote of the love and mercy of God too, so there are two sides to God, almost like there is two side to us, good and bad.

Good and evil didn’t pop up independently of the what made the world come to be. Good and bad are existential imperatives to one another, and they wait to be extracted by an experiencer, and we are the point of actualization that collapses potentials into realities, or where the rubber hits the road. We are seeing whatever world and whatever permutation of God we are able to see and there is no outcome that is not a reflection of the design

Yes this seems true of the ancient times and the present times.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[simpleas]

I don’t assume God has changed, in fact I believe it is humans who have changed in our thinking of God.

You mean you’ve never thought that humans have been discovering/growing in their knowledge of who/what God is?
The mum/ infant question is silly, we are talking about our connection to the Divine and how teachings about the supernatural impact us all as humans.