Pure confusion about New Mass and Old Mass

[tabsie3210]

Okay. To explain - I was born in 1977, and my mother is Jewish, so she knows nothing of the Catholic faith except what she learned while raising me to be Catholic. Daddy liked when they turned the Mass from Latin to English because even though he speaks Italian, neither he nor my grandparents (both of whom were from Italy - grandmother came over in 1914) were fluent in Latin and they often complained that they didn’t follow the Mass very well.

This is the Mass that I grew up with and that I still attend:

1. People come in dressed either very formally or very casually. Most people come in wearing pressed jeans and nice tops. All our Eucharistic Ministers are required to wear suits, ladies either suit pants or dresses, all men must wear ties. During the summer the men can wear long sleeved shirts but no jackets because it’s Houston and suit jackets are optional even in big business when it hits 103 degrees F.
2. Everyone stands and sings the opening hymn while the Crucifix proceeds the priest and deacon to the altar. There are the usual opening prayers and the Gloria. The Gloria (“Glory to God in the Highest and peace to His people on earth,”) is usually said in English, but during Advent and Lent is often said in Latin.
3. The altar is set up in the very center of the front of the room, with everybody facing it. Although the priest faces us during the concecration of the Host, there is a gold Crucifix on the altar that he looks at while he is performing the concecration. Direcly behind the altar, there is a giant Crucifix, and directly below that is the Tabernacle. Ours is made of gold and looks like the Ark of the Covenant. Both are always lit, either by nautral sunlight (there are side windows and a skylight surrounding the wall where the Crucifix hangs and the Tabernacle sits) or by side lights.
4. After the Gloria, we sit and the first reading, the Psalm, and the second reading are performed by lay readers. We all stand for the Gospel, which is usually read by one of our deacons or the priest. After the Gospel, we sit while either the deacon or the priest says the homily.
5. We stand up and the concecration of the Host begins. After we say the Hosanna, we all kneel and Father turns the wine and bread to Body and Blood. This is often performed in English, but during Advent and Lent is frequently said in Latin. We stand for the Our Father (and Father insists that we don’t hold hands or raise our hands during the “For the Kingdom” part of the prayer). We give each other the sign of peace and then kneel again.
6. The Eucharistic ministers go up to stand below the altar (our altar is on a dias where the priest and deacon sit, and where an altar server, boy or girl, or the acolyte stands to hold the books for the priest and deacon) while the priest, deacon and acolyte give them their cups and bowls. We stand, receive Communion, and return to kneel until the Host is returned to the Tabernacle. We don’t sit until everything is cleared away. Then we stand, Father and the deacon let us know of any big events in the church (such as Birthright selling Christmas cards), and the Mass is closed. We stand and sing the closing hymn and then head to the Narthex to say good day to the priest. Out there we have a giant baptismal fount that is attached to our holy water receptical, and painted above it is the picture from the Sistine Chapel of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit blessing the world.

Now, this is what I grew up with, but it doesn’t sound anything like what everyone’s complaining the Novo Ordo Mass is, and it doesn’t sound like the old pre-Vatican II Mass, either. I don’t understand what the complaint is, if my kind of Mass is what’s typical, but I don’t know that my kind is typical, either.

Is there someone out there who’s willing to explain to me, in baby words, what the problem with the new Mass is, why it’s a problem, and what these problems have to do with Vatican II?

I read the documents and, aside from telling us that the Mass should be in the native tongue of the people of the country, it doesn’t say anything about dramatically changing the Mass. I’m totally confused. Our Mass talks about God’s Grace, about His intervention, there are LOTS of lectures about hell and damnation (both my deacons and both priests talk often about why we want to avoid going to hell), a LOT where Father Charlie yells at us for not believing in the Real Presence in the Host, things like that.

Help! I’m 100% confused!

 

[corsair]

Sounds like you attend a pretty reverent OF Mass. I can understand why you are confused about the claims many of us make regarding the late 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. The OF Mass, as it is now called, can be done very reverently but it can also lead to many of the “tales” that you refer to. I have experienced several “incident” where it caused me to leave Mass early. I have “shopped” for reverent Masses. Occassionally I find them but too often they just send me on my way again.

I would like to suggest to you that you do a little studying and comparing the two Masses, OF & EF. They are really quite different.

I have often heard the complaint that, “I can’t understand latin”. But thats OK, you don’t NEED to understand latin. Get a good Sunday missal, you’ll find all the translations (english) on the right hand side. Following along takes a little practise but its also a time for deep contemplation.

The approach to Mass is a little different in the EF Mass. The priest acts as the intermediary between us and God. The priest presents our prayers on our behalf, which is why he faces the tabernacle and crucifix. (some say “with his back to us”).

You might try an EF Mass just to help clear up your confusion. I would go with someone that can help you through it. There are many threads on these forums that describe “first EF Masses”.

God Bless

 

[ProVobis]

I read the documents and, aside from telling us that the Mass should be in the native tongue of the people of the country, it doesn’t say anything about dramatically changing the Mass.

If you’re referring to the Vatican II documents, it doesn’t quite order all Masses to be said in the vernacular; in fact, Latin should be preserved in the liturgy.

I understand the confusion. Between 1964 and 1969, the liturgy of the Church, along with the rubrics and options and directives, was basically in chaos. The introduction of the Novus Ordo, as it was called at the time, tried to put an end to the chaos.

 

[fish90]

You are fortunate to go to such a reverent mass. People on these forums are upset over liturgical abuses, the loss of little t traditions, bad translations of Latin, and others. Look on youtube for novus ordo liturgical abuses and you will understand why. The EF form of the mass has some wonderful points as well such as the priest facing away from the people, nearly 1 billion Catholics praying in one language, kneeling for Communion, the fact that this is the mass many Saints attended, and others. Also,a lot of Eucharistic prayers were eliminated if I understand correctly.

 

[ProVobis]

Also,a lot of Eucharistic prayers were eliminated if I understand correctly.

The traditional Mass had one EP. During the 60’s as many as 20 different EP’s were introduced; the Pope consolidated them into 4 going forward in 1969-70.

 

[marci]

Some things that bother me at my church:

1. Holding and raising of hands during the Our Father. Raising hands during “and also with you”.
2. Terrible music, sometimes accompanied by clapping
3. No one kneeling after Communion.
4. A minimum of 10 Extra-ordinary ministers of Communion
5. Very casual dress by the young
6. “let us meditate on the Word of the Lord” Anyone else have lectors say this?
7. Long announcements before the final blessing. Are there any birthdays? Any aniversaries? Any visitors? etc.

None of these things make the mass invalid, but I ALWAYS leave mass feeling irritated at my fellow parishoners. I know that sounds terrible, but I have to admit it’s true.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\1. Holding and raising of hands during the Our Father. Raising hands during “and also with you”.||

These are venerable customs in the Melkite Catholic Church, and Middle Eastern Churches generally.

1. Terrible music, sometimes accompanied by clapping

I don’t know about clapping, but what’s terrible to one person is heavenly to another, especially in music.

1. No one kneeling after Communion.

**What’s it to you what others do after Communion? Say your own prayers and don’t mind others.

Since when is it required there be uniformity in these matters?**

1. A minimum of 10 Extra-ordinary ministers of Communion

I don’t know how many people come, but I do agree that EMHCs are too common and frequent.

1. Very casual dress by the young

That’s for their parents to direct and correct. Not you.

1. “let us meditate on the Word of the Lord” Anyone else have lectors say this?

I don’t have a copy of the GIRM, Lectionary, Ordo, or the like handy. Nor do I have liturgical instructions from your Diocesan Bishop. but I don’t think the ceiling will fall in about this.

1. Long announcements before the final blessing. Are there any birthdays? Any aniversaries? Any visitors? etc.\

**Either the rubrics of the Missal or the GIRM say that announcements are to be made before the final Blessing and Dismissal by the deacon. As irritating as you find this practice, assume that your Priest is following the Bishop’s instructions in this matter.

Though the Priest might announce something, and it be published in the bulletin for weeks in advance, half the parishioners will always say, “But we didn’t hear about this!”**

 

[marci]

\1.

These are venerable customs in the Melkite Catholic Church, and Middle Eastern Churches generally.

Wonderful. I don’t attend those churches

1. Terrible music, sometimes accompanied by clapping

I don’t know about clapping, but what’s terrible to one person is heavenly to another, especially in music.

To be sure. This is just my opinion.

1. No one kneeling after Communion.

**What’s it to you what others do after Communion? Say your own prayers and don’t mind others.

Since when is it required there be uniformity in these matters?**

Well Sister sure makes a stink if you happen to kneel after communion instead of stand. Her reasoning? We should all look Unified.

1. Very casual dress by the young

That’s for their parents to direct and correct. Not you.

Which is why I never have. Doesn’t mean I don’t have a right to point out to my own daughters why it isn’t appropriate for girls to wear hot pants to Mass. (short shorts)

1. “let us meditate on the Word of the Lord” Anyone else have lectors say this?

I don’t have a copy of the GIRM, Lectionary, Ordo, or the like handy. Nor do I have liturgical instructions from your Diocesan Bishop. but I don’t think the ceiling will fall in about this.

That really has nothing to do with it

1. Long announcements before the final blessing. Are there any birthdays? Any aniversaries? Any visitors? etc.\

**Either the rubrics of the Missal or the GIRM say that announcements are to be made before the final Blessing and Dismissal by the deacon. As irritating as you find this practice, assume that your Priest is following the Bishop’s instructions in this matter.

Though the Priest might announce something, and it be published in the bulletin for weeks in advance, half the parishioners will always say, “But we didn’t hear about this!”**

Calm down. I never said any of these things invalidated the mass. I just said they irritated the daylights out of me. Sheeesh.

 

[puzzleannie]

short form

there are not any problems with the “new Mass” except when the norms and rubrics are not followed. This was the same situation as with the “old” Mass, sometimes at certain times and places, with certain celebrants, there were problems–too fast, prayers omitted etc. Those problems did not invalidate the “old” Mass, and the problems some people have observed at some times and places since 1965 do not invalidate the entire concept of the “new Mass.” This is the liturgy of the universal Church and when we “do the rites right” we come as close to heaven as possible on this earth.

 

[fish90]

The traditional Mass had one EP. During the 60’s as many as 20 different EP’s were introduced; the Pope consolidated them into 4 going forward in 1969-70.

I am wrong when I am wrong, my apologies.

 

[yosupman]

\1. Holding and raising of hands during the Our Father. Raising hands during “and also with you”.||

These are venerable customs in the Melkite Catholic Church, and Middle Eastern Churches generally.

1. Terrible music, sometimes accompanied by clapping

I don’t know about clapping, but what’s terrible to one person is heavenly to another, especially in music.

1. No one kneeling after Communion.

**What’s it to you what others do after Communion? Say your own prayers and don’t mind others.

Since when is it required there be uniformity in these matters?**

1. A minimum of 10 Extra-ordinary ministers of Communion

I don’t know how many people come, but I do agree that EMHCs are too common and frequent.

1. Very casual dress by the young

That’s for their parents to direct and correct. Not you.

1. “let us meditate on the Word of the Lord” Anyone else have lectors say this?

I don’t have a copy of the GIRM, Lectionary, Ordo, or the like handy. Nor do I have liturgical instructions from your Diocesan Bishop. but I don’t think the ceiling will fall in about this.

1. Long announcements before the final blessing. Are there any birthdays? Any aniversaries? Any visitors? etc.\

**Either the rubrics of the Missal or the GIRM say that announcements are to be made before the final Blessing and Dismissal by the deacon. As irritating as you find this practice, assume that your Priest is following the Bishop’s instructions in this matter.

Though the Priest might announce something, and it be published in the bulletin for weeks in advance, half the parishioners will always say, “But we didn’t hear about this!”**

I don’t quite agree that what other people do at mass is of no concern to me. If it was the only time I attened that church, ok. But if that’s your parish you should talk to your pastor at least once, respectively. I have children myself, and I don’t want my children seeing people being irreverent and thinking that’s ok.

 

[yosupman]

Some things that bother me at my church:

1. Holding and raising of hands during the Our Father. Raising hands during “and also with you”.
2. Terrible music, sometimes accompanied by clapping
3. No one kneeling after Communion.
4. A minimum of 10 Extra-ordinary ministers of Communion
5. Very casual dress by the young
6. “let us meditate on the Word of the Lord” Anyone else have lectors say this?
7. Long announcements before the final blessing. Are there any birthdays? Any aniversaries? Any visitors? etc.

None of these things make the mass invalid, but I ALWAYS leave mass feeling irritated at my fellow parishoners. I know that sounds terrible, but I have to admit it’s true.

Looks like BPamoco got a little ahead of himself.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\3. No one kneeling after Communion.

What’s it to you what others do after Communion? Say your own prayers and don’t mind others.

Since when is it required there be uniformity in these matters?

Well Sister sure makes a stink if you happen to kneel after communion instead of stand. Her reasoning? We should all look Unified.\

**And I would ask her, “Why? We’re not supposed to be looking at each other, especially at this point.”

This is just a modern manifestation of the old Western idea that unity and uniformity were the same thing.**

 

[yosupman]

\3. No one kneeling after Communion.

What’s it to you what others do after Communion? Say your own prayers and don’t mind others.

Since when is it required there be uniformity in these matters?

Well Sister sure makes a stink if you happen to kneel after communion instead of stand. Her reasoning? We should all look Unified.\

**And I would ask her, “Why? We’re not supposed to be looking at each other, especially at this point.”

This is just a modern manifestation of the old Western idea that unity and uniformity were the same thing.**

When one person, or a whole bunch of people stand after communion, there can be 2 undercurrents to this occurence.

1.) Not even in protestant church do people stand after communion. This is ridiculas. People in protestant churches mostly pray after communion, or sing. To stand after communion can be a manifestation that you are making a statement, even in s freudian way.

2.) If there is a parish where 99% of all people kneel or sit after holy communion, and 3 people stand, I’d say they lack common sense. It represents a lack of tact. If you go to an orchestra concert, you wouldn’t stand, or do other actions that call attention to yourself. The usher would ask you to leave. Or at the least others would think to themselves, why is this person acting so strange. So why at the holy sacrifice of the Mass to people insist on doing actions that call attention to themselves, instead of praying with their whole heart to the Lord? We act better at solemn secular events than we do the Mass. We treat worldly leaders and kings with more respect than we do the King of Kings in the Mass.