Purely Symbolic Eucharist Apologetics from Church Fathers

[EvangelCatholic]

Only the ELCA, and other church bodies which recognize a female clergy would recognize ordained women as having a valid office. They wouldn’t be from our perspective or other confessional Lutheran church bodies (LCMS, WELS, etc).

What you write is true as far as north America. But most Lutherans [90%] worldwide affiliate with the Lutheran World Federation and though they may not all practice female ordination, they remain in fellowship/ full communion with the Lutherans who do ordain women priests [Church of Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, ELCA, etc.].

 

[Per_Crucem]

What you write is true as far as north America. But most Lutherans [90%] worldwide affiliate with the Lutheran World Federation and though they may not all practice female ordination, they remain in fellowship/ full communion with the Lutherans who do ordain women priests [Church of Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, ELCA, etc.].

Most Israelites (all but 7,000) throughout Palestine affiliate with the Temple in Jerusalem and though not all may practice Baal worship, they remain in fellowship/full communion with Israelites who do worship Baal.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

My position is in no way a Gnostic one; I also believe in our union with Christ and in the very real fact that where two or more are gathered in His name, He is there. I also know He never leaves nor forsakes me. Ever. There is never a time when He is not really and literally with me. The fact of the indwelling of the Spirit is permanent, and that is God literally within us. That is not a Gnostic concept. I don’t need any “feelings” to validate anything, I have His promise.

Hi, resident Gnostic here. That is a concept that you share with Gnostics, however it’s not exclusive to Gnosticism. Gnostics might take it one step further and say that the very core of our being *is *God, so there can never be a time in our lives when He isn’t present, even if we aren’t particularly aware of that presence.

It is absolutely gnostic, inasmuch as it is a denial that Christ can communicate Himself through material means, but is instead present in some phantom way that is “spiritual.” In that respect, you split the natures of Christ in the process of denying that our union with Christ takes place through the material means of His body and blood, death burial and resurrection (the Lord’s Supper and Baptism).

I guess it depends on which Gnostic sect you’re talking about, but the Valentinians, for example, wouldn’t have denied that Christ can communicate Himself through material means. The Gospel of Philip, one of the oldest works of Christian Sacramental theology, outright says, “The Eucharist is Jesus.”

And in regards to the incarnation, the same Gospel says: “Adam came into being from two virgins, from the Spirit and from the virgin earth. Christ therefore, was born from a virgin to rectify the Fall which occurred in the beginning.”

Christ, being divine, can communicate Himself to us through whatever means He chooses, whether physical or spiritual.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Berthold Von Schenk, pastor of Our Saviour Lutheran Church New York wrote in 1940:

"We cannot divide the body of Christ. The Church militant and the Church triumphant form one Church. Nothing can separate the members of the Church, neither life nor death, nor powers, nor principalities. At the altar we have fellowship with our risen and ascended Lord. But there is also a fellowship with all the members of the Church. At the altar we join hands not only with the great saints in heaven, but also with all our loved ones who have passed within the veil, our faithful departed.

We must come to a sense of the continuing presence of our loves ones, and we can do this if we realize the presence of our living Lord. As we seek and find our risen Lord we shall also find our dear departed. They are with Him, and we find the reality of their continued life through Him. The saints are a part of the Church. We worship with them. They worship the risen Christ face to face, while we worship the same risen Christ under the veil of bread and wine at the altar. At the Communion we are linked with heaven, with the Communion of Saints, with our loved ones. Here at the altar, focused to a point, we find our communion with the dead; for the altar is the closest meeting place between us and our Lord. That place must be the place of closest meeting with our dead who are in His keeping. The altar is the trysting place where we meet our beloved Lord. It must, therefore, also be the trysting place where me meet our loved ones, for they are with the Lord."

“How pathetic it is to see men and women going out to the cemetery, kneeling at the mound, placing little sprays of flowers and wiping their tears from their eyes, and knowing nothing else. How hopeless they look. Oh, that we could take them by the hand, away from the grave, out through the cemetery gate, in through the door of the church, and up the nave to the very altar itself, and there put them in touch, not with the dead body of their loved one, but with the living soul who is with Christ at the altar.

The Blessed Sacrament links us not merely to Bethlehem and Calvary, but to the whole world beyond the grave as well, for at the altar the infinite is shrined in the finite; heaven stoops down to earth; and the seen and the unseen are met.”
benedictinelutheran.blogspot.com/2013/08/meeting-saints-at-altar.html

 

[steido01]

Berthold Von Schenk, pastor of Our Saviour Lutheran Church New York wrote in 1940:

Thank you for sharing this beautiful explanation of the Communion we share with all the church. Even von Schenk can’t get the Eucharist wrong (I am pleasantly surprised, considering how often he is essentially useless -and even downright wrong- in his explanations of actual Lutheran beliefs).

 

[steido01]

What you write is true as far as north America. But most Lutherans [90%] worldwide affiliate with the Lutheran World Federation and though they may not all practice female ordination, they remain in fellowship/ full communion with the Lutherans who do ordain women priests [Church of Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, ELCA, etc.].

Not to derail the thread, but I’m not sure how long you can keep throwing around the “90% of Lutherans” line. It’s no longer accurate. The Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus (EECMY), by some counts the largest Lutheran church in the world and certainly the largest practicing Lutheran church in the world, just broke fellowship with the ELCA and Church of Sweden and has sought ties to the LCMS and the ILC. If it’s numbers you’re interested in: “On any given Sunday there are more Ethiopian Lutherans at worship than ELCA Lutherans in any one month.” Now the EECMY is looking for compassionate ways to undo the few female “ordinations” that it approved and move into closer fellowship with the rest of Confessional Lutheranism. Lutheranism is shifting back to Confessionalism and away from Liberalism.

This has already affected the LWF Eucaharistic hospitality, and will have lasting repercussions worldwide.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Thank you for sharing this beautiful explanation of the Communion we share with all the church. Even von Schenk can’t get the Eucharist wrong (I am pleasantly surprised, considering how often he is essentially useless -and even downright wrong- in his explanations of actual Lutheran beliefs).

Berthold von Schenk was a Missouri Synod pastor who founded a large parochial school that I know something about since I attended for a few years. Father Berthold was out-spoken and colorful toward hierarchy but primarily, a great sacramental thinker! At school Mass and on Sundays, all the kids had First Communion at age 7; the LCMS didn’t like Von Schenk communing their parents who were not Lutheran.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Missouri Synod Lutherans are like big fish in a very small pond. Not a part of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue and alienated from nearly all other Lutherans, some LCMS posters want the benefit of Lutheran recognition even when they are separate and remote from the ecumenical arena.

The Dialogue specifically identify the ELCA as the Lutheran partner in the Commission on Unity as well as the rest of the international Lutheran World Federation.

 

[JonNC]

Missouri Synod Lutherans are like big fish in a very small pond. Not a part of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue and alienated from nearly all other Lutherans, some LCMS posters want the benefit of Lutheran recognition even when they are separate and remote from the ecumenical arena.

The Dialogue specifically identify the ELCA as the Lutheran partner in the Commission on Unity as well as the rest of the international Lutheran World Federation.

Patently false. The LCMS has been partners in almost every dialogue with the USCCB.
What this LCMS poster wants is a more aggressive presence by the LCMS.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Patently false. The LCMS has been partners in almost every dialogue with the USCCB.
What this LCMS poster wants is a more aggressive presence by the LCMS.

Jon

Yes, I get weary of attacks between the LCMS and the ELCA. One so-called Lutheran poster is accusing the LWF of not being even Christian.

But the Lutheran Church of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue continues to be represent by the Lutheran World Federation. All that convergence on accepting the papacy/ magisterium were those “liberal” Lutherans. Trust Francis to lead us is what I tell fellow CAF Lutherans. Don’t get yourselves “too catholic” than the Pope. And we know what the holy Father has said concerning many of these anthropological and ethical issues?

 

[JonNC]

Yes, I get weary of attacks between the LCMS and the ELCA. One so-called Lutheran poster is accusing the LWF of not being even Christian.

But the Lutheran Church of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue continues to be represent by the Lutheran World Federation. All that convergence on accepting the papacy/ magisterium were those “liberal” Lutherans. Trust Francis to lead us is what I tell fellow CAF Lutherans. Don’t get yourselves “too catholic” than the Pope. And we know what the holy Father has said concerning many of these anthropological and ethical issues?

EC,
As you know, I was raised in the old LCA turned ELCA., by an LCA/ELCA pastor. I received a wonderful Christian education at an ALC college, and have many family members in the ELCA. There are tremendous numbers of good Lutherans, confessional and orthodox, in the ELCA, and I have great respect for them, as those I have spoken with to a person believe they need to stay and fix the errors.
OTOH, what you refer to as anthropological and ethical are, in many ways dogmatic and doctrinal for our Catholic siblings, just as they are in the LCMS. And on these issues, honestly, I have more trust in Pope Francis than I do in Bishop Hanson, or Elizabeth Eaton.

Jon

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Missouri Synod Lutherans are like big fish in a very small pond. Not a part of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue and alienated from nearly all other Lutherans, some LCMS posters want the benefit of Lutheran recognition even when they are separate and remote from the ecumenical arena.

The Dialogue specifically identify the ELCA as the Lutheran partner in the Commission on Unity as well as the rest of the international Lutheran World Federation.

A dialogue is just that a dialogue. IMHO, it’s more of a political smoke screen to bigger issues that are ignored for a little bit for the sake of good will. Nothing wrong with that is we leave it at that and don’t make something it is not.

This dialogue also recognizes that we are not proposing to settle all of the church-dividing issues before us. We have not attempted to resolve the important ecclesiological issues of the ordination of women or the authority by which such a decision is made, nor the full meaning of apostolic succession in ordained ministry and how we might be reconciled. We have not addressed the level of communion in ministries and structures that would be necessary for even interim Eucharistic communion. We are, however, convinced that the clarifications and research represented by this text make an important contribution in the stages toward reconciling these and other elements along the path toward full communion.

The Chair of Peter has already, infallibly spoken in the matter of female ordination to Holy Orders:

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my apostolic blessing.

Blessed John Paul II from the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.

 

[JonNC]

A dialogue is just that a dialogue. IMHO, it’s more of a political smoke screen to bigger issues that are ignored for a little bit for the sake of good will. Nothing wrong with that is we leave it at that and don’t make something it is not.

The Chair of Peter has already, infallibly spoken in the matter of female ordination to Holy Orders:

Blessed John Paul II from the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.

Hi Jose,
While I think dialogue is far more significant than that, without intending to speak for him, it seems EC is under the impression that female ordination is negotiable, or perhaps even inevitable, with the Catholic Church. I’ve tried on a number of occasions to dissuade him of that notion. Pope Francis is not going to change CC teaching on the matter. Nor should he.

Jon

 

[rcwitness]

Hi Jose,
While I think dialogue is far more significant than that, without intending to speak for him, it seems EC is under the impression that female ordination is negotiable, or perhaps even inevitable, with the Catholic Church. I’ve tried on a number of occasions to dissuade him of that notion. Pope Francis is not going to change CC teaching on the matter. Nor should he.

Jon

It would be easier for him to remove the salt from the sea

Michael

 

[bogeydogg]

It would be easier for him to remove the salt from the sea

Michael

I’m always surprised when I hear people trying to interpret the Pope’s words in the broadest most liberal way they can. Even when I was not attending a. Catholic Church I knew perfectly well he was espousing the clear teaching of the Catholic Church,it was the ignorance of what Church. Doctrine actually is that makes people he think he is saying something new.

God Bless

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Hi Jose,
While I think dialogue is far more significant than that,

Jon

Hopefully it is, Jon. To be honest, I’m never too optimistic about these “dialogues”…

 

[steido01]

Hopefully it is, Jon. To be honest, I’m never too optimistic about these “dialogues”…

While measuring my optimism, I think they are more important than just friendly smokescreens. If they were, the great big RCC wouldn’t bother engaging the puny Confessional Lutheran synods, like the Lutheran Church-Canada. While we are still decades away (at least) from sharing His Table under normal circumstances, I do see a day when convergence is reached.

 

[Oska2]

Most Israelites (all but 7,000) throughout Palestine affiliate with the Temple in Jerusalem and though not all may practice Baal worship, they remain in fellowship/full communion with Israelites who do worship Baal.

Your claim is not factual. You may just Google and see the deviation from what is on the ground.
I mean, In Israel, you will not find the Temple, it was destroyed by the Roman soldiers in 70AD. Where the temple was there stands a Mosque.
Israelites do not worship Baal. Actual Baal was a Canaanite male god associated with sun-worship. If you go to Israel, you’ll find many churches, especially Catholic.
However, there are a few Jews who follow the old religion of Judaism.

 

[Porknpie]

Plus, we are only held to account for the things we know of, not what we don’t. The ignorant are not punished for their ignorance, but we are held accountable to what we do know.

Where in scripture does it say that the ignorant are not punished for their ignorance? Catholic teaching differs from the above. My favorite Jesuit (see signature line) says that God will judge fairly based on ones conscious. That is not to say that those all those who are in ignorance of the Gospel are not accountable. There are two kinds of people: those that seek the truth and those that did not. Both can be in ignorance but the latter are at more risk to being held accountable. Per the Catechism:

IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

PnP

 

[PRmerger]

Where in scripture does it say that the ignorant are not punished for their ignorance?

Indeed.

Common sense tells us that this happens every day.

Take someone who is ignorant of how to make a fire without a match. She is stranded on a desert island. No doubt she will suffer for her ignorance.

Ignorant parents deny their children immunizations. They will be punished for their ignorance.
As will their children.

An ignorant pagan will suffer for lack of grace he could be receiving through baptism into His Body.

No doubt that ignorance often results in punishment.