Purgartory discussion

[PJM]

=Thomas White;12538675]It just would seem that if one’s……

I stopped right there for a reason. The next word would have to be ‘time’. So: it just would seem that if one’s time in Purgatory is limited—with a beginning and an end—it necessary occurs in time. It would involve a Becoming as opposed to being in an eternal present moment in a timeless (eternal) state of pure being. Purgatory is a concept, and it would seem that those that speculate that Purgatory is experienced while we are indeed alive and in our temporal existence could be correct. I don’t know.

Scripture informs of a Last Judgment. At that time, the Son, He who was given by the Father the right to judge, will judge both the living and the dead. Those who have attained salvation will enter eternal life. Those condemned will suffer death. But the condemned are not ‘dead’ as the word is commonly understood. They are ‘dead’ to something that exists. What then is ‘death’ in this context? Our understanding (or at least mine) seems to hit a brick wall here unless death means the eternal denial of the Beatific Vision. And this denial would entail an eternal damnation entailing suffering. This state too would be outside of time.

This leaves Purgatory difficult to understand. Again, it seems it would necessarily occur in time. How could this—time–occur in eternity? Well, though we exist in time in this temporal world, our souls are already in eternal existence. So perhaps Purgatory is a continuation of a Becoming, in time, that ends as our being enters the eternal present moment. This necessary would occur at some point in time for all of us. It would therefore seem that Purgatory must end with the Last Judgment and the end of time. What it would not mean is that a soul in Purgatory must remain in that state until the end of time.

But Creation exists in time and it would seem its ground is in some pure being from which it emerges. This could be called a Supreme Being, and indeed it is. Being is not becoming. It IS. The end of time then would involve an Apocalypse, the lifting of the veil of Revelation. In this way, the condemned would realize that there is a Beatific Vision and that it will ever be denied to them. This is Hell.

This is how I understand it as this time. It is not to say it is correct. I don’t know. It is all conceptual and not existential. What, for example, would occur to the soul after death in this temporal world and before the Last Judgment and the end of time? I don’t know. What I do know is that very few of those who ever lived have been canonized as Saints by the Church. There is mystery.

My friend you have done an excellent job at presenting mortal man;s perspective
however it’s God’s that is most important in my view.

**Isaiah 55:6-10 **“Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. [7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. 8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. [10] And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:”

God Bless you, very nice post!

Patrick

 

[rayb3638]

The almost final act of the crucified Jesus on the cross was to forgive a repentant self- confessed criminal sharing the same fate. Luke 23:41-43 " For us it is just; this is payment for what we have done, But this man has done nothing wrong." And he said “Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus replied, “Truly you will be with me today in paradise.”
I have always wondered how the “good thief” appeared to escape the purgatorial process. The manner of his death and the fact he had the grace to embrace the love of Jesus gives credence to the speculation that how we live our lives in preparation for death and the act of dying may be the complete purgatorial process.
Great postings. God bless you all.

 

[Sarcelle]

The almost final act of the crucified Jesus on the cross was to forgive a repentant self- confessed criminal sharing the same fate. Luke 23:41-43 " For us it is just; this is payment for what we have done, But this man has done nothing wrong." And he said “Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus replied, “Truly you will be with me today in paradise.”
I have always wondered how the “good thief” appeared to escape the purgatorial process. The manner of his death and the fact he had the grace to embrace the love of Jesus gives credence to the speculation that how we live our lives in preparation for death and the act of dying may be the complete purgatorial process.
Great postings. God bless you all.

I don’t think the good thief escaped the purgatorial process. He was after all crucified right next to Christ and was no doubt suffering horribly. That together with his repentance served as the purgatorial process. After all, it is possible to undergo purgatory while still living.

I do agree that death can be also a process of purgation.

 

[The_Reginator]

Along those lines, I often hear that Judas Isacariot, the one who betrayed Jesus, **and **Peter, our first Pope, both had remorse. in both was an awareness that they had done wrong. But Peter also had repentance… Judas went and hanged himself. Peter went and begged for forgiveness, essentially asking for mercy from the Lord and resolving to change his ways.

 

[PJM]

=rayb3638;12542936]The almost final act of the crucified Jesus on the cross was to forgive a repentant self- confessed criminal sharing the same fate. Luke 23:41-43 " For us it is just; this is payment for what we have done, But this man has done nothing wrong." And he said “Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus replied, “Truly you will be with me today in paradise.”
I have always wondered how the “good thief” appeared to escape the purgatorial process. The manner of his death and the fact he had the grace to embrace the love of Jesus gives credence to the speculation that how we live our lives in preparation for death and the act of dying may be the complete purgatorial process.
Great postings. God bless you all.

As for the “Good thief’s” by passing Purgatory.

Purgatory is too a Creation of our Almighty God. Isaiah 55: 1-6 tells us explicitly that God’s way are NOT our; God is able to do any good thing; and permitting a repentant thief to get into heaven is the GREATEST possible good.

What is the Lesson Christ wanted US to grasp from this action?

It is that He desires that everyone be saved {John 3:17} and this act of Mercy is to be an encouragement to even GREAT sinners; that they too might be saved if they Repent and convert. Mt. 12:41}

This act was not only for the “good thief” it was a Moral Lesson for all that have “eyes to see and ears to hear.” Mark 4:9

God Bless you,

Patrick

.

 

[Gorgias]

How can we talk about time in purgatory when the dimension of time does not exist in the after life.

How? Analogously, as a means to help us understand that the purgation of imperfections that souls may experience is not a “one size fits all” experience.

Is there actual ‘time’ involved? Well, time is a measure of change: we watch the sun ‘rise’ and the sun ‘set’, and we assign the notion of ‘time’ to what we perceive as the duration between these two events. Time is necessarily part of our physical experience of the universe – it is united, inherently, to physical creation.

Purgatory is experienced by the soul, not the body; and therefore, there is no physical dimension to the experience. So, that means that there is not ‘time’, per se, as we know it. But, there is the notion of change involved in purgation – our soul goes from ‘imperfect’ to ‘perfected’. So, perhaps there is something akin to time, in a way that we cannot know until we experience it.

Rather than talking about ‘time’ spent in Purgatory, then, perhaps it’s more accurate to talk about the “process of being purged”.

 

[GaryTaylor]

How? Analogously, as a means to help us understand that the purgation of imperfections that souls may experience is not a “one size fits all” experience.

Is there actual ‘time’ involved? Well, time is a measure of change: we watch the sun ‘rise’ and the sun ‘set’, and we assign the notion of ‘time’ to what we perceive as the duration between these two events. Time is necessarily part of our physical experience of the universe – it is united, inherently, to physical creation.

Purgatory is experienced by the soul, not the body; and therefore, there is no physical dimension to the experience. So, that means that there is not ‘time’, per se, as we know it. But, there is the notion of change involved in purgation – our soul goes from ‘imperfect’ to ‘perfected’. So, perhaps there is something akin to time, in a way that we cannot know until we experience it.

Rather than talking about ‘time’ spent in Purgatory, then, perhaps it’s more accurate to talk about the “process of being purged”.

Good point, and often one which creates confusion in relation to intercession-prayer thus time in purification.