Purgation after final judgement

[Fidelis]

Agreed. It is Christ Jesus who has made us pure. All the good deeds in the world could not make me worthy. It is Christ Jesus who has justified me.

We’ve been thorough this whole thing before in a previous thread how Purgatory has nothing to do with working toward salvation. You apparently weren’t listening then, so I won’t waste time here again.

The Bible tells us how we are saved:

And this is the record, that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. I John 5:11

Jesus is the only way to heaven:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44

Amen! That’s what Catholics believe too.

God loves you:

For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not

perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Amen again! But what does Jesus mean here by believe? Go down further in this chapter, and you will find out:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
(John 3:36)

Disobeying God is not following his commandments. Both faith AND works (by God’s grace, not our own power) are necessary.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

You know, of course, Paul is speaking here, not about good works in the sense of fulfilling the ten commandments and avoiding evil, but is talking about the Levitical Law. Please read the entire chapter in context. Same for the other famous “faith alone” proof-text, Romans 3:28.

Good works are born out of faith, **not the other way around. **

Who said they were?

Besides, if faith automatically resulted in good works, the whole New Testament (which was addressed to believers) would be useless, since it constantly commands believers to do certain good actions and avoid certain evil ones.

 

[Ginger2]

Fidelis,

I really think we agree on this issue.

Works spring up naturally out of faith.

But, works are not the cause of salvation - more like a byproduct.

BTW, While you say we have been thru this before, there was much disagreement amoung Catholics about what exactly happens in purgatory.

 

[mgrfin]

Agreed. It is Christ Jesus who has made us pure. All the good deeds in the world could not make me worthy. It is Christ Jesus who has justified me.

The Bible tells us how we are saved:

And this is the record, that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. I John 5:11

Jesus is the only way to heaven:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44

God loves you:

For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not

perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Good works are born out of faith, not the other way around.

Ginger, you’re spewing the Protestant line. It is only partially correct.

It is heretical to say that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will.

Luther did not know the meaning of justification - he called it a forsensic justice, that God just declared us just, instead of internal justice, that we are pure and clean and washed by God’s grace, not just declared so; and Luther didn’t not know how to define faith.

For Luther, and for you, faith, is understood as personal assurance of salvation. That OSAS notion, which is also heretical. We have not guarantee of salvation. He hope and earnestly pray for it, but we have no guarantee.

Simple, you are wrong.

Have peace

 

[Fidelis]

Fidelis,

I really think we agree on this issue.

Works spring up naturally out of faith.

But, works are not the cause of salvation - more like a byproduct.

Well, we kinda-sorta agree.

As I said above, if good works sprang up naturally out of faith, the whole New Testament (which was addressed to believers) would be useless, since it constantly commands believers to do certain good actions and avoid certain evil ones.

Works are not the *direct cause *of salvation; we aren’t saved by the works themselves, even ones done as a response to and under the power of God’s grace.

But we ARE saved by works in the sense that if we don’t do the good works that God has set before us to do, or do evil works (mortal sins) in defiance of God’s clear prescription, this is disobedience and, as Jesus said in the passage above, the disobedient cannot be saved.

[God] will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. (Romans 2:6-8)

Another, secondary way doing good works saves you is that when you occupy yourself with walking in God’s ways, you leave less room to fall into sins. When you head off even venial sin, it is harder for it to become habitual and lead you into serious sin:

No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one. Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death. (James 1:13-15)

Occupy your minds with good thoughts, or the enemy will fill them with bad ones. Unoccupied, they cannot be. -St. Thomas More

BTW, While you say we have been thru this before, there was much disagreement amoung Catholics about what exactly happens in purgatory.

That’s why the teaching of the Church, including Sacred Scripture, is the definitive word, not individual Christians. Everyone in these forums can offer their opinion and honestly try to put the teachings of the Church in their own words to try and helpfully explain it, but what it comes down to and we know for sure is what has been revealed. Anything more than that is commentary or speculation.

 

[Ginger2]

Fidelis,

That was so well said, I hesitated as to whether or not I should respond.

All I will add is that the NT would not be “useless” because Scriptures are one way that God speaks to us.

And we’ll let “who the church is” ride.

 

[Fidelis]

Fidelis,

That was so well said, I hesitated as to whether or not I should respond.

Thanks, but I’m just a monkey imitating what I hear the Church and the Scriptures and the Saints saying down through the centuries.

If you want some interesting reading on this subject, I warmly recommend taking a look at the Council of Oranges Declaration on Justification (especially the Conclusion), set forth in the year 529 AD in response to Pelagianism (the heresy of Pelagius that one could work their way to heaven). It is very short and easy to read and I think you will be pleasantly surprised and even edified at much that you find there:

creeds.net/ancient/orange.htm

All I will add is that the NT would not be “useless” because Scriptures are one way that God speaks to us.

Amen! I was just speaking in terms of our discussion about the necessity of works.

And we’ll let “who the church is” ride.

Agreed! That’s a whole 'nother thread.

 

[mgrfin]

Well, we kinda-sorta agree.

As I said above, if good works sprang up naturally out of faith, the whole New Testament (which was addressed to believers) would be useless, since it constantly commands believers to do certain good actions and avoid certain evil ones.

Works are not the *direct cause *of salvation; we aren’t saved by the works themselves, even ones done as a response to and under the power of God’s grace.

But we ARE saved by works in the sense that if we don’t do the good works that God has set before us to do, or do evil works (mortal sins) in defiance of God’s clear prescription, this is disobedience and, as Jesus said in the passage above, the disobedient cannot be saved.
Another, secondary way doing good works saves you is that when you occupy yourself with walking in God’s ways, you leave less room to fall into sins. When you head off even venial sin, it is harder for it to become habitual and lead you into serious sin:
That’s why the teaching of the Church, including Sacred Scripture, is the definitive word, not individual Christians. Everyone in these forums can offer their opinion and honestly try to put the teachings of the Church in their own words to try and helpfully explain it, but what it comes down to and we know for sure is what has been revealed. Anything more than that is commentary or speculation.

Opinion? Is that what you call it? If I state for you what Trent had to say on Justification, why is this opinion? If you ask me what St. Paul had to say on Redemption, why is that a matter of opinion?

Is the faith not capable of being explained, and after you have done so correctly, why is it a matter of opinion?

Opinion means that all the 13,000 Protestant sects are equally true. Even as true at the Catholic Church.

No the infallible, true Church of Christ is the one true church, and it is not a matter of opinion about what one says. The Church speaks in human terms that we can understand, and it is not opinion about what they are saying.

BTW, if a Protestant agrees with you on the subject of Justification, Grace, good works, faith, get the life-preservers out cause she is swimming the Tiber.

Or, you misunderstood what she was saying? Take your pick.

peace

Peace.

 

[mgrfin]

Fidelis,

I really think we agree on this issue.

Works spring up naturally out of faith.

But, works are not the cause of salvation - more like a byproduct.

BTW, While you say we have been thru this before, there was much disagreement amoung Catholics about what exactly happens in purgatory.

Good works of the justified are gifts of God, but they are also the good merits of the person justified. Also, the person justified by the good works he perfrorms by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, truly merits an increase of grace, eternal life, and if he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life, and an increase in glory.

That is the Catholic posiition, not opinion, mind you, but the teaching of the infallible, and true Catholic Church.

peace

 

[Fidelis]

Opinion? Is that what you call it? If I state for you what Trent had to say on Justification, why is this opinion? If you ask me what St. Paul had to say on Redemption, why is that a matter of opinion?

Is the faith not capable of being explained, and after you have done so correctly, why is it a matter of opinion?

No the infallible, true Church of Christ is the one true church, and it is not a matter of opinion about what one says. The Church speaks in human terms that we can understand, and it is not opinion about what they are saying.

I didn’t single out any one person as having an erroneous opinion, and I didn’t say that Catholics were incapable of accurately presenting the Church’s teaching. I simply pointed out that when what one hears from a Catholic conflicts with explicit Church teaching, Church teaching is what is definitive.

BTW, if a Protestant agrees with you on the subject of Justification, Grace, good works, faith, get the life-preservers out cause she is swimming the Tiber.

Or, you misunderstood what she was saying? Take your pick.

Peace.

If you read carefully, we only agreed on some things, not everything. She had her say, and I had mine, and we found some points of agreement. It’s called discussion.

I’ve been doing apologetics, leading Catholic Bible study and teaching the Faith for 20 years. Not every apologetics discussion has to be the Battle for Helm’s Deep.

 

[mgrfin]

I believe the words of St. Thomas Aquinas clearly demonstrate that “faith alone” does not exlude us from works, but rather are works are justified because of our faith.

“…although some who observed the works of the Law in times past were made just, nevertheless, this was effected only by the faith of Jesus Christ.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, trans. F. R. Larcher, O.P. (Albany: Magi Books, Inc., 1966), Chapter 2, Lecture 4, (Gal. 2:15-16), pp. 54-55.

Catholics and Protestants are not really at odds on this point. It is a matter of misunderstanding what we mean.

This also explains why Protestants don’t believe in purgatory. It is not necessary.

And that is why saints will go straight to heaven at the final judgement.

Quote:
"I believe the words of St. Thomas Aquinas clearly demonstrate that “faith alone” does not exlude us from works, but rather are works are justified because of our faith."Unquot

I don’t understand this sentence at all, both because of its construction, and because of its implied theology.
“Works are justified because of our faith”. No they not justified because of our faith.

You say Protestants and Catholics are really not at odds, it is just a misunderstanding.

Ginger, the joint Commission of Lutherans and Catholics spent 30years trying to work out the differences, and they couldn’t. The Chruch was not going to yield on its definition of Justification by faith, and the necessity of good works. The anathemas of Trent still apply. You want to call that 'are not really at odds". I don’t think so.

Protestants believe that forensic justification makes any good works unnecessary, as a matter of fact, Luther called such good works ‘sinful’. Therefore Purgatory was not necessary for he said God took all sins, and punishment attached thereof away, regardless of anything we did. It has been maintained for 500 years that Luther’s stance on Justification by faith alone was wrong. I guess it is going to stay that way.

peace

 

[christcnection1]

Agreed. It is Christ Jesus who has made us pure. All the good deeds in the world could not make me worthy. It is Christ Jesus who has justified me.

The Bible tells us how we are saved:

And this is the record, that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. I John 5:11

Jesus is the only way to heaven:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44

God loves you:

For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not

perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Good works are born out of faith, not the other way around.

Not one of these verses contradicts what the Catholic Church officially teaches Ginger. In fact, we believe all of them 100%.

In a nutshell, this is our understanding from the Bible:

“As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

The difference is we are made holy and perfected through Christ alone, rather than declared righteous. We are made righteous, not declared righteous by the graces He merited alone on the cross for our sins as they are actually applied to our souls. It’s completely through Him, with Him, and in Him.

The difference is like snow covering a piece of dung (Luther’s view) vs. a piece of dung becoming precious gold (the Catholic view). However, we wouldn’t say that mankind is a piece of dung because we are created in the image and likeness of God.

I hope that helps. Have a blessed day.

JB

 

[christcnection1]

I really believe that at the “end of time” there will be no more purgatory for anyone, whether purgatory is considered an extension of heaven or not. The purpose of time as we have it now is to move toward or away from God, in any state. And at the end of time, that purpose should be fulfilled for all people. Heaven will not have time as we experience it now, and it will not have time as those in purgatory experience it now. It does not make sense to have an annexed, timed section of heaven (purgatory) after eternity has begun.

But perhaps the final general judgment will occur after all purification has been completed. Maybe the end of time will come then. In any case, I am certain that God is able to work it all out and have only purified souls without blemish enter the Kingdom. He will not cheat anyone out of His gift to become clean however He brings it about.

But I do believe that at the final judgment, eternity will begin for all and everyone and, by God’s mercy, there will be an end to purgatory.

Does the Church even say that there is actual “time” in purgatory?

I hope you’re right, but I do not see it as you do in the first paragraph. It’s still a nice thought. I think your second paragraph in more in line with my understanding.

We should talk soon by the way.

I hope you are well…

 

[JeannetteCML]

I have something from Tan Books on Purgatory. It has many many accounts of people having visions of persons in Purgatory who tell them their state of affairs and ask for help. It all seems to suggest that there is some kind of “time” in Purgatory.

For example… There was an artist who did mostly religious paintings but who was asked to do one immodest painting. It caused scandal to many people causing impure thoughts, etc. and the result was the some people were condemned to hell. The artist himself was sentenced to Purgatory for as long as his painting was in existence. So the owner of the painted received a vision of the artist begging the owner to destroy it. He complied and it was then revealed to him that the artist was allowed to enter Heaven. This example, like many others in the book, seems to suggest that there is a kind of time in Purgatory and that, in some cases, it can correspond to time on Earth.

Another thing I remember was something that was said by our Lady of Fatima to the children. It was that a certain girl would be sentenced to Purgatory “until the end of time” for looking at immodest pictures. As I understand it, then, she would be in Purgatory for as long as it lasted.

Speaking of all this immodest pictures business… would anyone please pray for someone I know named Chelsea? She has been posing for a pornographic website for some time. It tears me up.

 

[JeannetteCML]

P.S. You’re not really going to disagree with Thomas Aquinas are you?

 

[JeannetteCML]

This from the Catechism:

Paragraph 1031

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, BEFORE THE FINAL JUDGMENT, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

 

[christcnection1]

I have something from Tan Books on Purgatory. It has many many accounts of people having visions of persons in Purgatory who tell them their state of affairs and ask for help. It all seems to suggest that there is some kind of “time” in Purgatory.

For example… There was an artist who did mostly religious paintings but who was asked to do one immodest painting. It caused scandal to many people causing impure thoughts, etc. and the result was the some people were condemned to hell. The artist himself was sentenced to Purgatory for as long as his painting was in existence. So the owner of the painted received a vision of the artist begging the owner to destroy it. He complied and it was then revealed to him that the artist was allowed to enter Heaven. This example, like many others in the book, seems to suggest that there is a kind of time in Purgatory and that, in some cases, it can correspond to time on Earth.

Another thing I remember was something that was said by our Lady of Fatima to the children. It was that a certain girl would be sentenced to Purgatory “until the end of time” for looking at immodest pictures. As I understand it, then, she would be in Purgatory for as long as it lasted.

Speaking of all this immodest pictures business… would anyone please pray for someone I know named Chelsea? She has been posing for a pornographic website for some time. It tears me up.

I agree with all these points. I just don’t know that purgatory corresponds directly with our time on earth as we understand it. I apologize for not qualifying that. I’m not sure the Church directly addresses this specific issue.

I find these mystical revelations frightening and intriguing. They certainly give you a lot to think about, and have inspired me to take my walk with the Lord more seriously.

 

[christcnection1]

This from the Catechism:

Paragraph 1031

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, BEFORE THE FINAL JUDGMENT, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

Amen…

I totally agree with this passage in the Catechism; however, it never assumes or conveys the message that the Final Judgement itself has purgatory lumped in with it. Likewise, it doesn’t say it does not. Purgatory is a judgement afterall. Furthermore, one might believe that being “pardoned in the age to come” directly deals with this question, before and/or after the Final Judgement. Either interpretation would be over-reading into the paragraph.

The Catechism is not clear on this specific issue, and that’s fine by me. As it’s clearly stated, I accept the this 100%. It’s a good one.

 

[JeannetteCML]

The catechism is clear. It says purgation is before the final judgment.

Alas, these threads rarely come to resolutions, do they? Everyone’s got to think their own thing. Oh, well. Anyway, I think I’m done with this one folks.

Bye!

 

[Keikiolu]

The catechism is clear. It says purgation is before the final judgment.

Alas, these threads rarely come to resolutions, do they? Everyone’s got to think their own thing. Oh, well. Anyway, I think I’m done with this one folks.

Bye!

Uh,… justice requires that those who have temporal things to be purged have them purged.

All humanity will be purged before the final judgement, in purgatory, unless they go directly to heaven, or directly to hell.

How exactly does the timing work?

Ask God, as He’s the only One who would know.

Once again,… here we have overly curious people hypothesizing about that which is to be simply accepted as a mystery.

It’s OK to cogitate on the puzzle until you find that it’s answered by the Church as a mystery,… but after that, accept it as what it is. A MYSTERY…!

What is UP with you guys and the wacky pseudo-rationalizing…!?

(( Nah,… I like to kick around stupid stuff like this too. ))

 

[Ginger2]

How do Catholics relate this verse to the idea that good works lessens the time they spend in purgatory?

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

The people referred to in these verses believe in God and did good works in His name.