Purgatorial flames... Is this good news?

[FiberZilla]

Catholic writers have said that the suffering fires in purgatory burn hotter than the flames of hell. With no way to know how long one has to spend in purgatory (centuries perhaps?) where is the good news? Is anyone here looking forward to that kind of brutal suffering? Is this how God shows his love for us by throwing us into fire?

 

[LilyM]

It’s not the flames themselves that are good news, except inasmuch as without them many of us would be unfit for heaven. Few people indeed, if any, would die in such a state of perfection that they were immediately fit for God’s presence - for nothing imperfect can enter heaven.

God does show a great deal of love for us by allowing those of us who die imperfect, but only guilty of venial offences, to be perfected and come into His presence, even though the process is painful. The alternative, of course, is to damn anyone who doesn’t die completely perfect.

The good news is that even though we have to suffer purgatory temporarily (and compared to eternity, any amount of time you’d care to name is a mere blink of the eye), we have the certainty of heaven to follow to console us in our pain.

It’s a bit like the pain of a woman giving birth - exruciating as it is (and some women suffer very much indeed during pregnancy and/or labour) there is nonetheless the joy of the child to look forward to and console them for the pain.

Or I suppose you could also compare it with the pain of someone who is undergoing a medical treatment of some kind in order to cure an illness. Even very painful treatments are more than bearable when we know that they are certain to cure the even more painful illness and bring us to good health.

 

[the_hazel_nut]

I haven’t ever read anything about the fires of purgatory being hotter than hell, so I am going to take your word for it.

In my own opinion, purgatory is good news because it allows us to eventually enter heaven even if we are not holy enough to enter immediately. I see it as a logical necessity that many need to be purified before entering.

Sometimes, when I offer up my suffering, I feel much better and closer to God. I imagine that if I were in purgatory, I would be happy to know that my suffering would ultimately allow me to experience the eternal joy of being with God in heaven.

I think, though I am not sure, that even though the fires are hotter, it is not a worse place to be than hell… because you know you are going to be with God. If you are in hell, you have no hope.

my :twocents:

 

[Zatzat]

Flames in hell, flames in purgatory…

Outsider here, have a question.

I thought Christians believed that when we die, our souls go to heaven, purgatory or hell and our physical bodies are left behind.

Is that true?

If it is, how could flames which are a physical, cause pain to a non-bodily spiritual being?

Wouldn’t you need a physical body and a brain in order to feel pain?

 

[the_hazel_nut]

Flames in hell, flames in purgatory…

Outsider here, have a question.

I thought Christians believed that when we die, our souls go to heaven, purgatory or hell and our physical bodies are left behind.

Is that true?

If it is, how could flames which are a physical, cause pain to a non-bodily spiritual being?

Wouldn’t you need a physical body and a brain in order to feel pain?

Well of course it’s a physical place… haven’t you ever heard of Mount Purgatory? The Divine Comedy?

Anyway… it’s not a physical fire. I’m sure you’ve heard of hell being described before as a state of being absent from God for eternity. The pain is like being burned by fire.

Purgatory:

“Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church’s teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence.”

That’s what John Paul II said about it.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999_en.html

When we say the fire being hotter, we mean the pain being greater. Fire is the best way to describe purgatory and hell in terms that are easy to relate to. It is hard to relate to a non-physical reality while we are alive.

I have to go to now. I’ll be back later.

 

[hellopeople]

It’s not the flames themselves that are good news, except inasmuch as without them many of us would be unfit for heaven. Few people indeed, if any, would die in such a state of perfection that they were immediately fit for God’s presence - for nothing imperfect can enter heaven.

God does show a great deal of love for us by allowing those of us who die imperfect, but only guilty of venial offences, to be perfected and come into His presence, even though the process is painful. The alternative, of course, is to damn anyone who doesn’t die completely perfect.

The good news is that even though we have to suffer purgatory temporarily (and compared to eternity, any amount of time you’d care to name is a mere blink of the eye), we have the certainty of heaven to follow to console us in our pain.

It’s a bit like the pain of a woman giving birth - exruciating as it is (and some women suffer very much indeed during pregnancy and/or labour) there is nonetheless the joy of the child to look forward to and console them for the pain.

Or I suppose you could also compare it with the pain of someone who is undergoing a medical treatment of some kind in order to cure an illness. Even very painful treatments are more than bearable when we know that they are certain to cure the even more painful illness and bring us to good health.

Burning in fire definitely seems like it would set us straight. How anyone believes a loving God would send everyone into fire for a while before they can go to heaven makes little sense to me. That is the opposite of loving.

 

[Smber2c]

Catholic writers have said that the suffering fires in purgatory burn hotter than the flames of hell. With no way to know how long one has to spend in purgatory (centuries perhaps?) where is the good news? Is anyone here looking forward to that kind of brutal suffering? Is this how God shows his love for us by throwing us into fire?

I’ve not heard that purgatory’s flames are hotter than hell; but instead that the suffering in purgatory is greater than any suffering possible during our Earthly life - which as others have said is not cause for joy in itself.

However, there is great joy in knowing that if we die in a state of grace, our theology teaches that 2 of God’s greatest gifts hold true:

1. We are made with a free will & God doesn’t take that away in Heaven, we keep it forever - we don’t become mindless robots as we enter the pearly gates, but are instead retain our unique traits and personality.
2. God protects heaven, keeping it a perfect destination as He has promised us. He don’t compromise with peopleing saying, “Okay, if you’re pretty good, we’ll let you in despite those 2 vices you never got over.” NO! Heaven is perfect, no sin, no failings, no weakness.

But how can Heaven allow free will and yet have no sin? Those who enter Heaven are changed from who they were on Earth (well except the few, the proud, the Earthly Saints). God gives the gift of His holy fire to essentially bake out all those little holds that different sins have on our soul.

Don’t imagine that God’s got us tide to a post in the midst of buring logs - He’s not torturing us with punishment - He is purfying us as iron bathed in hot coals, to gain stregnth and purity. The pain is that of coming to know evils in our soul, acknowledging their hold, then having that hold released.
So, an adulterer may 1st suffer as God reveals just how often adultry has been commited in action, word, or deed. More suffering would come from seeing the physical and spiritual damage that had on numerous different people’s lives. Basically, we see just how evil the sins that we committed were (imagine watching a true movie where you are a villian in Shindler’s List but likely worse). Then God reveals how deep a hold we’d allowed that sin to get on us. He every time we thought impure thought we stregnthened it. Then we start the slow and painful process of rejecting the sin in its every shape and form. Lustful thoughts, lewd jokes, porn mags, inappropriate glances, inappropriate dress, etc… We find the fault and the failing in each and God helps us build the stregnth to resist each.
This would go on for many sins and in many more ways that I can possibly imagine. After all - its to ensure that every person that gets through has no faults left.

Long? Yes. Painful? Yes. Good? Certainly, possibly the greatest gift that anyone could recieve up to that point in their existance.

 

[Smber2c]

Burning in fire definitely seems like it would set us straight. How anyone believes a loving God would send everyone into fire for a while before they can go to heaven makes little sense to me. That is the opposite of loving.

Just as God doesn’t choose to put evil in the world, but instead allows us to act freely - thus allowing us to choose evil. He don’t force purgatory on anyone. If a person dies and this soul is unwilling to be purified - then they simply reject God and go the other way - away from God - which then leads to an unimaginable experience of loss, fear, dread, hopelessness, etc…for all eternity - but it is self inflicted loss.

God is love, and once we are also defined by love - we enter Heaven. To ask less would be to ask engineers to try building the Golden Gate Bridge our of Oreos instead of steel - it just can’t be done. God can’t build His perfect kingdom of anything less than perfect components.

And the usual analogy is of how a blacksmith forges metal tools/weapons. He heats it until glowing, then pounds out any impurities. This is repeated, again and again, each time getting closer to a pure metal. The iron become stronger with each blow.

It’s like how lifting weights hurts, how studying can be painful, how we sacrifice for family - hurts but bring us closer. Good things can hurt. Pain is not evil, despite what modern culture may lead many to believe.

 

[hellopeople]

God is love, and once we are also defined by love - we enter Heaven.

I am going to try this with my son I think. I will burn him until he is defined by love. How could it go wrong? It is what God does so it MUST WORK!!!

This is insane. Pain does not make someone love, it causes resentment and hatred. How does this make sense to any of you? Seriously?!?!?! Do you really think if someone made you sit in a fire you would love them for it? You would all of a sudden be purified by extreme pain? Why don’t we just do this on earth then? Why don’t we just go around causing great physical harm to ourselves so that we are defined by love?

 

[LilyM]

I am going to try this with my son I think. I will burn him until he is defined by love. How could it go wrong? It is what God does so it MUST WORK!!!

This is insane. Pain does not make someone love, it causes resentment and hatred. How does this make sense to any of you? Seriously?!?!?! Do you really think if someone made you sit in a fire you would love them for it? You would all of a sudden be purified by extreme pain? Why don’t we just do this on earth then? Why don’t we just go around causing great physical harm to ourselves so that we are defined by love?

A doctor who makes me go through a painful operation when I’m very unwell, but does so purely because he or she knows that by means of the operation I will of a certainty be completely cured and made healthy? And who succeeds - beyond my wildest dreams? Absolutely I’d love such a doctor! I’d kiss their feet and thank them profusely for giving me the much-needed operation.

A mother goes through pain during childbirth. Does it cause her to love the child more? Well, certainly many mothers value (have a greater bond with, and dare I say love) their children the more because of what they went through to bring them into the world. Mother and child are bonded by it like comrades who go through a fierce battle together.

And for the most part they certainly don’t RESENT the child for the fact of the labour pains they went through.

 

[shondrea]

Because parents who discipline their children and want them to be better don’t love them, right?

 

[GEddie]

Catholic writers have said that the suffering fires in purgatory burn hotter than the flames of hell. With no way to know how long one has to spend in purgatory (centuries perhaps?) where is the good news? Is anyone here looking forward to that kind of brutal suffering? Is this how God shows his love for us by throwing us into fire?

1. There is no time-succession in Purgatory, which is part of eternity. Time is a register of changes in matter and energy (phyiscal) and our physical self does not go to Purgatory. We receive a “Spiritual Body” who is unaffected by time changes, and so cannot “suffer for centuries” from supposed fire.
2. The presence of actual fires in Purgatory is not and has not been part of Church doctrine (IANAP; correct me if this is wrong). Anything said about them remains private revelation.
3. The need for Purgatory lies within our mind and soul (which survive death) not our bodies (which will be changed). So it will have more to do with the readjustment of our mind and psyche from sin than with physicality (although this may well express in our external self, the way psychological suffering in life reflects in the human body).
4. The root of physical suffering lies in the damage and destruction to our bodies. Fire is fearsome because it so rapidly and irreversibly destroys our beings; But there is no damage, no death, in the Spiritual Body of eternity. That alone will make any physical pain (if present) somewhat beside the point; we will know that it is completely recoverable.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Zatzat]

He don’t force purgatory on anyone. .

Yet, God created this place?

 

[Zatzat]

A doctor who makes me go through a painful operation when I’m very unwell, but does so purely because he or she knows that by means of the operation I will of a certainty be completely cured and made healthy? And who succeeds - beyond my wildest dreams? Absolutely I’d love such a doctor! I’d kiss their feet and thank them profusely for giving me the much-needed operation.

Poor example.

God is omnipotent, your Doctor isn’t. Meaning, if your analogy was comparable to the subject at hand, your Doctor would have the power to give you a 100% pain free operation.

However, instead of the pain free operation, the Doctor willingly chooses to give you the really painful operation.

Knowing that the Doctor could give you the same operation, but pain free, but the Doctor chooses not to…how would you feel about the Doctor then?

I know how I’d feel…I’d get a new Doctor.

 

[hellopeople]

Poor example.

God is omnipotent, your Doctor isn’t. Meaning, if your analogy was comparable to the subject at hand, your Doctor would have the power to give you a 100% pain free operation.

However, instead of the pain free operation, the Doctor willingly chooses to give you the really painful operation.

Knowing that the Doctor could give you the same operation, but pain free, but the Doctor chooses not to…how would you feel about the Doctor then?

I know how I’d feel…I’d get a new Doctor.

GREAT point!

 

[Soler]

Who are we to question what God does to us when he offers us an eternity—an eternity!—of bliss if we do His will?

If the suffering a soul in Purgatory will have to undergo is represented by one second, then the joys of Heaven are more than five decades. If the suffering in Purgatory is represented by a single atom, then the joys of Heaven weigh more than the whole earth.

And we are all so extraordinarily undeserving of these joys.

So what’s the use in complaining? We should rather thank God for the enormous gift He has offered us.

 

[Vile_Servant]

Catholic writers have said that the suffering fires in purgatory burn hotter than the flames of hell.

Not true. No fire burns hotter than the flames of hell.

 

[hellopeople]

Who are we to question what God does to us when he offers us an eternity—an eternity!—of bliss if we do His will?

If the suffering a soul in Purgatory will have to undergo is represented by one second, then the joys of Heaven are more than five decades. If the suffering in Purgatory is represented by a single atom, then the joys of Heaven weigh more than the whole earth.

And we are all so extraordinarily undeserving of these joys.

So what’s the use in complaining? We should rather thank God for the enormous gift He has offered us.

I am complaining because it doesn’t make any sense. Why does a loving God always have to be associated with unearthly pain?

God is compassionate. God is ever loving. No human on earth can comprehend God’s love…but YOU MUST BURN FIRST BEFORE YOU RECEIVE THIS LOVE!!!

Take your personal beliefs out of it for a second (or try to). Does a compassionate God send everyone to burn before you go to heaven? Does that seem compassionate? If every single person is not worthy of heaven, then why burn everyone instead of burning no one?

I would never send any person, no matter what they did, to eternal torment. Am I more compassionate than God, is God not actually that compassionate, or does God not send people to hell. And please don’t say that you send yourself to hell, because if it was up to the person, they would always choose heaven. God is the one that says they can’t get in.

 

[Julian0404]

GREAT point!

It is sad point. One that expresses only humanity and human understanding of GOD, and a limited human understanding at best.

Peter Kreeft in his CD “7 reasons why everyone should be Catholic” informs us that “if” GOD were to give us (humans) full and complete knowledge of HIS existence, presence, powers, places etc. then we would be forced to love HIM. We would absolutely know, and we would be forced. GOD has never forced anyone, including our first parents, or satan. We all must chose. GOD desire our “faith” and our “love” not our robotic participation. HE gives us just enough to know HIM, believe in HIM and love HIM, but HE does not give us so much that we cannot say “no” to HIM, if that is our desire.

However the choice needs to be formed with a right conscience, which means with knowledge and learning so that we can understand. The Bible, which has been declared inspired by GOD and true, tells us of the place where the souls perished before Jesus died for our sins, it was refered as “the bossom of Abraham”.

So the first point is that there is another “place” besides heaven and hell.

Also in the Bible, which is the inspired word of God, we have very clear examples of the beggar and the rich man, with one being in hell and the other “in the bosom of Abraham”.

So the second point is that GOD has made a hell. Go to Borders and get the book “23 minutes in Hell”.

In the early 20th century in the community of FATIMA, Portugal, the Virgin Mary came to visit 3 children. This has been declared as an actual occurence and visit of the Virgin Mary by the Catholic Church after investigations and research. Also there was an awesome miracle at Her last visit, which was witnessed by hundreds, many of which were atheistic but wrote the truth. During one of her visits, She showed the children “hell”, which they described as a burning pit, with human forms floating around as embers in a fire. It was on this visit by the Virgin Mary that She instructed the children to add to their rosary the following prayer as requested by GOD

Oh my JESUS, forgive us our sins, and save us from the FIRES OF HELL, lead all souls into heaven, especially those most in need of THY mercy

So the fourth point is that JESUS wants us to remember there is a hell, and HE wants us to avoid it at all costs. We are rapidly convincing ourselves otherwise. And that is the sad point made above. We cannot fully understand all that GOD is. We must walk in faith and trust in HIS mercy. The faith we must walk in, must be formed in our hearts and minds through our efforts to learn as much as we can. We cannot stay in our ignorance and reject the true GOD, for the “god” we have created in our minds, based upon what we as humans think is fair or not. We owe everything to GOD, every single breath, GOD owes us nothing.

Yes, you can go to another “doctor”, but JESUS already made that request of the original 12 apostles, when after teaching the truth of HIS presence in the bread and wine, 5,000 disciples left HIM, so HE turned to the remaining 12 and asked, “Are you going to leave ME as well” - paraphrase. And Peter said, “to whom will we go LORD, YOU have the words of eternal life” - paraphrase

So, yes you can leave and look for another “doctor”, and it is with GREAT joy to satan if you do, for in as much as you are already considering GOD the equal of your human nature, by chosing to walk away from HIM, if HE doesn’t fit your human understanding, then satan already has a foot hold on your mind.

Heaven is for perfection. Very few of us will ever be at “perfection” when we die. GOD will purify those souls who have not died in mortal sin, but still have sin upon their souls. In as much as HE and HIS VIRGIN MOTHER have shown us the actual fires of hell, and “the bossom of Abraham” there is another place where those souls will go, and they will be called HOLY for they have been blessed with heaven, when in the fullness of time, our LORD and SAVIOR has purified them in perfection.

 

[hellopeople]

It is sad point. One that expresses only humanity and human understanding of GOD, and a limited human understanding at best.

Peter Kreeft in his CD “7 reasons why everyone should be Catholic” informs us that “if” GOD were to give us (humans) full and complete knowledge of HIS existence, presence, powers, places etc. then we would be forced to love HIM. We would absolutely know, and we would be forced. GOD has never forced anyone, including our first parents, or satan. We all must chose. GOD desire our “faith” and our “love” not our robotic participation. HE gives us just enough to know HIM, believe in HIM and love HIM, but HE does not give us so much that we cannot say “no” to HIM, if that is our desire.

However the choice needs to be formed with a right conscience, which means with knowledge and learning so that we can understand. The Bible, which has been declared inspired by GOD and true, tells us of the place where the souls perished before Jesus died for our sins, it was refered as “the bossom of Abraham”.

So the first point is that there is another “place” besides heaven and hell.

Also in the Bible, which is the inspired word of God, we have very clear examples of the beggar and the rich man, with one being in hell and the other “in the bosom of Abraham”.

So the second point is that GOD has made a hell. Go to Borders and get the book “23 minutes in Hell”.

In the early 20th century in the community of FATIMA, Portugal, the Virgin Mary came to visit 3 children. This has been declared as an actual occurence and visit of the Virgin Mary by the Catholic Church after investigations and research. Also there was an awesome miracle at Her last visit, which was witnessed by hundreds, many of which were atheistic but wrote the truth. During one of her visits, She showed the children “hell”, which they described as a burning pit, with human forms floating around as embers in a fire. It was on this visit by the Virgin Mary that She instructed the children to add to their rosary the following prayer as requested by GOD

Oh my JESUS, forgive us our sins, and save us from the FIRES OF HELL, lead all souls into heaven, especially those most in need of THY mercy

So the fourth point is that JESUS wants us to remember there is a hell, and HE wants us to avoid it at all costs. We are rapidly convincing ourselves otherwise. And that is the sad point made above. We cannot fully understand all that GOD is. We must walk in faith and trust in HIS mercy. The faith we must walk in, must be formed in our hearts and minds through our efforts to learn as much as we can. We cannot stay in our ignorance and reject the true GOD, for the “god” we have created in our minds, based upon what we as humans think is fair or not. We owe everything to GOD, every single breath, GOD owes us nothing.

Yes, you can go to another “doctor”, but JESUS already made that request of the original 12 apostles, when after teaching the truth of HIS presence in the bread and wine, 5,000 disciples left HIM, so HE turned to the remaining 12 and asked, “Are you going to leave ME as well” - paraphrase. And Peter said, “to whom will we go LORD, YOU have the words of eternal life” - paraphrase

So, yes you can leave and look for another “doctor”, and it is with GREAT joy to satan if you do, for in as much as you are already considering GOD the equal of your human nature, by chosing to walk away from HIM, if HE doesn’t fit your human understanding, then satan already has a foot hold on your mind.

Heaven is for perfection. Very few of us will ever be at “perfection” when we die. GOD will purify those souls who have not died in mortal sin, but still have sin upon their souls. In as much as HE and HIS VIRGIN MOTHER have shown us the actual fires of hell, and “the bossom of Abraham” there is another place where those souls will go, and they will be called HOLY for they have been blessed with heaven, when in the fullness of time, our LORD and SAVIOR has purified them in perfection.

This view rests on the Bible being inspired by God. Also, if God purifies us by burning us, why even have confession? If I commit sins from now on I will just heat up a wire hanger and burn myself…I mean its what God would do, right?