Purgatorial Universalism

[DaveBj]

snip

However, discussion of that specific topic would require a separate thread. I brought it up to point out that rejection of apokatastasis is not universal, even within the Catholic Church.

You said it here:

You say that apokatastasis (i.e. rejecting the belief that there is an eternal Hell) is not universally rejected by the Catholic Church.

That’s why I’m concerned, and why I’m trying to explain it.

FrDavid, please re-read what I wrote. I did not say that apokatastasis is not universally rejected BY the Catholic Church; I said that it is not universally rejected WITHIN the Catholic Church, and I quoted a commonly accepted prayer to that effect. I came out of Protestantism having no idea what apokatastasis is, but believing that not everyone will be saved, and as a Catholic I study through the Catechism every year during Lent. I know what the Catholic Church teaches in this subject, and I accept it.

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid, please re-read what I wrote. I did not say that apokatastasis is not universally rejected BY the Catholic Church; I said that it is not universally rejected WITHIN the Catholic Church, and I quoted a commonly accepted prayer to that effect. I came out of Protestantism having no idea what apokatastasis is, but believing that not everyone will be saved, and as a Catholic I study through the Catechism every year during Lent. I know what the Catholic Church teaches in this subject, and I accept it.

I assure you that apokatastasis is certainly rejected by the Catholic Church for the heresy that it is. “By” or “within” makes no difference.

The prayer “lead all souls into heaven” does not advocate apokatastasis. That’s where you’re getting all confused.

I am trying to explain it to you. You’re confusing two different things.

Apokatastasis is the belief that hell is only temporary, that there is no such thing as an eternal Hell. Maybe my re-phrasing it, I can get the point across.

You keep trying to defend Apokatastasis based on the Fatima prayer, but you’re way off base. Completely.

Praying “lead all souls into heaven” does NOT mean that Hell is temporary. It doesn’t make any sense.

 

[DaveBj]

I assure you that apokatastasis is certainly rejected by the Catholic Church for the heresy that it is. “By” or “within” makes no difference.

To say that something is rejected BY the Catholic Church means that the teaching and the leadership of the Church reject it. To say that something is not universally rejected WITHIN the Church means that there are members of the Catholic Church who do not reject the concept, in spite of the fact that the leadership of the Church and the official teaching of the Church do reject it. There is a big difference between “by” and “within.”

The prayer “lead all souls into heaven” does not advocate apokatastasis. That’s where you’re getting all confused.

I am trying to explain it to you. You’re confusing two different things.

Apokatastasis is the belief that hell is only temporary, that there is no such thing as an eternal Hell. Maybe my re-phrasing it, I can get the point across.

I am not confused. You have explained the concept very well. My point about the Fatima prayer is that it could lead people to believe in some kind of universal salvation, no matter whether hell is eternal or not.

You keep trying to defend Apokatastasis based on the Fatima prayer, but you’re way off base. Completely.

sigh

I have expressed myself on this subject several times. I’m going to try one more time.

I AM NOT TRYING TO DEFEND APOKATASTASIS. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN IT.

Have I made myself clear now?

Praying “lead all souls into heaven” does NOT mean that Hell is temporary. It doesn’t make any sense.

You know that, and I know that, but can you say for certain, given the sorry state of catechesis within the Catholic Church, at least in America, that the average John Q. or Suzie Q. Catholic in the pews knows that?

 

[Sirach2]

Have I made myself clear now?

You know that, and I know that, but can you say for certain, given the sorry state of catechesis within the Catholic Church, at least in America, that the average John Q. or Suzie Q. Catholic in the pews knows that?

There was no need for dramatics, Dave. You are speaking with a priest, but it could apply to just about anyone.

I disagree that others might think the Fatima prayer is universalism. NO WAY! And if so, only a small handful.

 

[Sirach2]

Last but not least, he sent me this link.

For some reason, I cannot correctly copy/paste the link you posted at the bottom of post #3 so that others can read it. (Go to the post for the link)

There is not a single word in that link that referred Pope John Paul II, Origen, Augustine, etc.

I see that you are the creator of Roblox, and in google search, I finally gave up the search at post 40 … no point going further. You are an intense, full-time gamer.
http://supers-robloxhistory.blogspot.com/p/information.html
Who created this site?
SuperDarkMan12 is the person who created this site. He created this site, because he wanted to make more people educated about Roblox.
It appears to me that the questions posed in this thread originated from you, not the poster in Roblox. Are you gaming with us, SuperDarkMan?

 

[TK421]

I have nothing worthwhile to contribute, other than to note that the Fatima Prayer in the Rosary includes the petition “. . . lead all souls into Heaven.” If that were not possible, then why do we pray it?

It is in this exact same appearance that Mary shows a vision of Hell, with souls and demons presently within it.

Fatima occurred for the express purpose of combating universal salvation and nihilism, and the enormous damage they can and have caused to the world. If only Lucia were here to present this painfully obvious point for me. It is so demoralizing that I even have to post this.

We hope that all souls be saved because that is what any sane, non-depraved human being would ever want. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the reality of the world and choices people make.

 

[Sirach2]

It is in this exact same appearance that Mary shows a vision of Hell, with souls and demons presently within it. The subterfuge here is extraordinary.

 

[DaveBj]

There was no need for dramatics, Dave. You are speaking with a priest, but it could apply to just about anyone.

I disagree that others might think the Fatima prayer is universalism. NO WAY! And if so, only a small handful.

His being a priest did not excuse his multiple misinterpretations of what I posted. I very, VERY seldom resort to that kind of posting, but in this case I felt that it was necessary, in order to get his attention.

 

[steve_b]

the Fatima Prayer in the Rosary includes the petition “. . . lead all souls into Heaven.” If that were not possible, then why do we pray it?

I would say because It’s a good and pious request…right?

But to finish the prayer, we also say “especially those in most need of your mercy”. THAT addition shows “some maybe many” aren’t in good shape before they die…when one still has the ability to ask for forgiveness

The prayer is NOT meant to override an individual’s free will. As we know, free will is hugely powerful. And it is truly free. otherwise the following would be nonsense if no one was capable of freely choosing between good or bad, blessings or curses etc. [Deuteronomy 30:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+30:19&version=RSVCE).

another way to look at this, If we aren’t free in our actions, then we aren’t culpable for what we do either. Anymore than an animal is culpable for what THEY do. In extension, it puts doubt on why Jesus would even have to suffer and die for us if we aren’t culpable for what we do.

As to the question of purgatory. That’s only for souls who die in a state of grace, i.e. no mortal sin on their souls at death. Those in mortal sin are NOT in a state of grace. They don’t go to purgatory for purification. They go straight to hell.

Just as scripture states in many places

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious ( [αἱρετικὸν (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm) )man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing the eucharist deliberately on Sunday, then no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God. #[17 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10796857&postcount=17)
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ἀρσενοκοῖται]10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
• Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
• 2 Peter 2:4-22

When souls die in those sins, they go straight to hell. No purgatory for THEM

 

[mikeforjesus]

Thanks for this post. I was under the false conception that Pope John Paul 2 taught universal salvation from the website romancatholicism.org/jpii-quotes.html
I admire the courage of catholics to witness about hell everywhere they go and their closeness to church fathers. I also admire Pope John Paul 2’s love for all to find salvation in his church. However I do not like the lack of discipline to those who teach evolution in schools. I know the evil deeds of some catholic priests do not represent the majority which is what the media wants to portray. I do not know if there is a purgatory. I understand it does not mean there are second chances but I am worried perhaps God will not forgive people for not forsaking all to find the truth just as non christians are commanded to do. Some catholics may want to be orthodox but they won’t because of their family. I hope they are forgiven after death if they are faithful adherants to their church and to those who are believers but I can not know though I interpreted scripture that way
I do not agree that the pope is infallible in regards to doctrine that would be a threat for your church but luckily you say Pope John Paul 2 never taught that
I do believe perhaps Peter does have the primal role though that does not mean the pope will have the highest reward in heaven. In the orthodox church we have our pope as Peter
I have not listen to my church teachings for a while nor enquired. I remember that Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom specially to Peter first and then to the apostles another time and gave all the apostles the authority to forgive and said each of them must not seek authority over the other but him who is greatest let him be servant
Now if I get uncomfortable in my church I should ask my church and if I do not feel comfortable with what they are teaching I should enquire in your church. Likewise you must do the same but I do not know whether one should or not convert. God alone is the judge of such persons who knows if people have good excuses

 

[steve_b]

Thanks for this post. I was under the false conception that Pope John Paul 2 taught universal salvation from the website romancatholicism.org/jpii-quotes.html
I admire the courage of catholics to witness about hell everywhere they go and their closeness to church fathers. I also admire Pope John Paul 2’s love for all to find salvation in his church. However I do not like the lack of discipline to those who teach evolution in schools. I know the evil deeds of some catholic priests do not represent the majority which is what the media wants to portray. I do not know if there is a purgatory. I understand it does not mean there are second chances but I am worried perhaps God will not forgive people for not forsaking all to find the truth just as non christians are commanded to do. Some catholics may want to be orthodox but they won’t because of their family. I hope they are forgiven after death if they are faithful adherants to their church and to those who are believers but I can not know though I interpreted scripture that way
I do not agree that the pope is infallible in regards to doctrine that would be a threat for your church but luckily you say Pope John Paul 2 never taught that
I do believe perhaps Peter does have the primal role though that does not mean the pope will have the highest reward in heaven. In the orthodox church we have our pope as Peter
I have not listen to my church teachings for a while nor enquired. I remember that Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom specially to Peter first and then to the apostles another time and gave all the apostles the authority to forgive and said each of them must not seek authority over the other but him who is greatest let him be servant
Now if I get uncomfortable in my church I should ask my church and if I do not feel comfortable with what they are teaching I should enquire in your church. Likewise you must do the same but I do not know whether one should or not convert. God alone is the judge of such persons who knows if people have good excuses

Mike

Thanks for your response

If you have an interest in the Catholic Church here’s Bishop John a Melkite Catholic, in a Q/A. When the Melkites came back into communion with the chair of Peter, the pope of Rome, Melkite Bp John gave IMO, an excellent explanation for the why, and he does so using different examples

1. 
   *]https://melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-j…ited-with-rome
   *]melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/how-do-the-popes-encyclicals-and-teachings-impact-on-the-melkites

 

[mikeforjesus]

Thanks I shall read those articles. Sorry if I address serious issues without any grace and cause confusion