Purgatory… Indulgences

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El_PAso

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Hi,

I recently began going to the TLM Mass and purchased several 1962 Missals. I rarely used the ordinary missal and don’t recall as many specifics about indulgences for certain prayers and acts. I don’t like to be an accountant about such things and have really no clue and as I said I have done such acts and prayers out of pure love and devotion to Jesus but I have racked up quite a few years of indulgences based on what is spelled out in the 1962 Missal!

But who knows… I mean I could have 5000 years of indulgences and have a sentence of 5 million years! I don’t mean to be flippant about this subject as I take it very seriously. Purgatory does not sound like fun and I know very incredible priests who are sure they will spend time there and I often wonder just what I’m in for….

All that aside I see purgatory as a purification. Say I die in a state of grace but still have a lustful eye sometimes…that will have to go completely. So how would indulgences help with that?

I have more questions and would like to hear from members if they ever had such thoughts?

Thanks,

El Paso
 
Hi,

I recently began going to the TLM Mass and purchased several 1962 Missals. I rarely used the ordinary missal and don’t recall as many specifics about indulgences for certain prayers and acts. I don’t like to be an accountant about such things and have really no clue and as I said I have done such acts and prayers out of pure love and devotion to Jesus but I have racked up quite a few years of indulgences based on what is spelled out in the 1962 Missal!

But who knows… I mean I could have 5000 years of indulgences and have a sentence of 5 million years! I don’t mean to be flippant about this subject as I take it very seriously. Purgatory does not sound like fun and I know very incredible priests who are sure they will spend time there and I often wonder just what I’m in for….

All that aside I see purgatory as a purification. Say I die in a state of grace but still have a lustful eye sometimes…that will have to go completely. So how would indulgences help with that?

I have more questions and would like to hear from members if they ever had such thoughts?

Thanks,

El Paso
First of all, time in Purgatory is not literal. Purgatory lies in eternity and beyond collinear time, which anyhow, operates only on the material of our human bodies.

Also, time of indulgence never translated into “time” of Purgatory, but only to required duration of canonical penance. This was confusing, and so the Church no longer assigns a time value to indulgences.

However, the effort needed to gain an indulgence helps to work off our sinfulness, which after all, is the purpose of Purgatory.

ICXC NIKA
 
Hi,

I recently began going to the TLM Mass and purchased several 1962 Missals. I rarely used the ordinary missal and don’t recall as many specifics about indulgences for certain prayers and acts. I don’t like to be an accountant about such things and have really no clue and as I said I have done such acts and prayers out of pure love and devotion to Jesus but I have racked up quite a few years of indulgences based on what is spelled out in the 1962 Missal!

But who knows… I mean I could have 5000 years of indulgences and have a sentence of 5 million years! I don’t mean to be flippant about this subject as I take it very seriously. Purgatory does not sound like fun and I know very incredible priests who are sure they will spend time there and I often wonder just what I’m in for….

All that aside I see purgatory as a purification. Say I die in a state of grace but still have a lustful eye sometimes…that will have to go completely. So how would indulgences help with that?

I have more questions and would like to hear from members if they ever had such thoughts?

Thanks,

El Paso
You must die in a state of grace for any effect in purgatory. The attachments to creatures must be purged.

Those indulgences were abrogated in 1967 and a new set produced. The years measurement is not used anymore, but when it was it meant time spent in penance in this life, not the next.

The simplest indulgence, which may be plenary when all conditions are met, is a half hour of devoted study of the bible. Another similar that may be obtained on any day, it the Way of the Cross.

The fourth revision (1999) is the latest:

vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_doc_20020826_enchiridion-indulgentiarum_lt.html
 
To add, if someone is interested in getting the official English translated book version, one place it can be purchased is through the USCCB site: usccbpublishing.org/productdetails.cfm?PC=705

For myself, I generally like to pray the rosary (5 decades) before or after mass in church as my prescribed work, or Eucharistic Adoration for at least a half hour.
 
First of all, time in Purgatory is not literal. Purgatory lies in eternity and beyond collinear time, which anyhow, operates only on the material of our human bodies.

/QUOTE

Purgatory is literal. But yes the “time” element can be said to be rather different than our time could take place in a moment…

And purgatory does not work on the material of our human bodies at all. We receive again our body (resurrected body!) at the resurrection.
 
To add, if someone is interested in getting the official English translated book version, one place it can be purchased is through the USCCB site: usccbpublishing.org/productdetails.cfm?PC=705

For myself, I generally like to pray the rosary (5 decades) before or after mass in church as my prescribed work, or Eucharistic Adoration for at least a half hour.
Right one needs to look to the current indulgences -not ones that are no longer.
 
Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart’s time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39]. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice—the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together—judgement and grace—that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1).

~ Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html
 
A further point must be mentioned here, because it is important for the practice of Christian hope. Early Jewish thought includes the idea that one can help the deceased in their intermediate state through prayer (see for example 2 Macc 12:38-45; first century BC). The equivalent practice was readily adopted by Christians and is common to the Eastern and Western Church. The East does not recognize the purifying and expiatory suffering of souls in the afterlife, but it does acknowledge various levels of beatitude and of suffering in the intermediate state. The souls of the departed can, however, receive “solace and refreshment” through the Eucharist, prayer and almsgiving. The belief that love can reach into the afterlife, that reciprocal giving and receiving is possible, in which our affection for one another continues beyond the limits of death—this has been a fundamental conviction of Christianity throughout the ages and it remains a source of comfort today. Who would not feel the need to convey to their departed loved ones a sign of kindness, a gesture of gratitude or even a request for pardon? Now a further question arises: if “Purgatory” is simply purification through fire in the encounter with the Lord, Judge and Saviour, how can a third person intervene, even if he or she is particularly close to the other? When we ask such a question, we should recall that no man is an island, entire of itself. Our lives are involved with one another, through innumerable interactions they are linked together. No one lives alone. No one sins alone. No one is saved alone. The lives of others continually spill over into mine: in what I think, say, do and achieve. And conversely, my life spills over into that of others: for better and for worse. So my prayer for another is not something extraneous to that person, something external, not even after death. In the interconnectedness of Being, my gratitude to the other—my prayer for him—can play a small part in his purification. And for that there is no need to convert earthly time into God’s time: in the communion of souls simple terrestrial time is superseded. It is never too late to touch the heart of another, nor is it ever in vain. In this way we further clarify an important element of the Christian concept of hope. Our hope is always essentially also hope for others; only thus is it truly hope for me too[40].

~ Pope Benedict XVI

(same Encyclical)
 
When I receive a partial indulgence I always hope that it was 99% partial instead of 1% partial.

🙂

Sometimes I offer my indulgences to the Holy Souls in Purgatory.
 
You must die in a state of grace for any effect in purgatory. The attachments to creatures must be purged.
What does that mean, exactly?
Does that mean things like, if you have a special hobby in this life or a place taht you have fallen in love with, or maybe a favorite football club you have gotten attached to?
Please don’t laugh, I am really curious.
What is meant with creatures? Also things that are not per se sinful?
 
What does that mean, exactly?
Does that mean things like, if you have a special hobby in this life or a place that you have fallen in love with, or maybe a favorite football club you have gotten attached to?
Please don’t laugh, I am really curious.
What is meant with creatures? Also things that are not per se sinful?
Sin arises from what is we find good, but which is inordinate. We develop attachments to what is desirable, which when associated with sin are attachment to sin. So that needs to be broken.
 
Thanks for all the responses,

I have been meditating upon this and feel I have at least a bette understanding of Purgatory if not indulgences.

As I see it; if I have a particular vice/sin I struggle with but and remorseful, repent and go to confession I will be in a state of grace but since I have harbored such a vice and often still commit it I would still have some sort of a stain of this sin. If I died in a state of grace but still not fully given up such a vice Purgatory will be where I am purified once and for all.

If I am graced enough to conquer that particular sin it will not have to be dealt with per se in Purgatory. I don’t understand Purgatory as punishment for the numerous times I committed the sin.

.

As per indulgences; I now see these as not so much “money in the bank” but by practicing such acts I am actually purifying myself on earth. The more I attend Mass, pray the Rosary etc the less apt I am to commit my vices/sins and in my experience be able to conquer them on Earth. So by such practices say I have been able to over come say addictions that is less “time” in Purgatory; these are sins I no longer have an attachment to. Once again not viewing Purgatory as punishment but purification.

I read it some where that there are only saints in Heaven so we will attain such sainthood by either our earthly acts or the purification of Purgatory.

Thanks,

El Paso
 
Thanks for all the responses,

I have been meditating upon this and feel I have at least a bette understanding of Purgatory if not indulgences.

As I see it; if I have a particular vice/sin I struggle with but and remorseful, repent and go to confession I will be in a state of grace but since I have harbored such a vice and often still commit it I would still have some sort of a stain of this sin. If I died in a state of grace but still not fully given up such a vice Purgatory will be where I am purified once and for all.

If I am graced enough to conquer that particular sin it will not have to be dealt with per se in Purgatory. I don’t understand Purgatory as punishment for the numerous times I committed the sin.

.

As per indulgences; I now see these as not so much “money in the bank” but by practicing such acts I am actually purifying myself on earth. The more I attend Mass, pray the Rosary etc the less apt I am to commit my vices/sins and in my experience be able to conquer them on Earth. So by such practices say I have been able to over come say addictions that is less “time” in Purgatory; these are sins I no longer have an attachment to. Once again not viewing Purgatory as punishment but purification.

I read it some where that there are only saints in Heaven so we will attain such sainthood by either our earthly acts or the purification of Purgatory.

Thanks,

El Paso
The Church teaches that we are “graced enough” to resist at least mentally even to a bad habit, through the actual graces of God. The will to not sin is most important.

Contrition includes the firm resolve to fully give up “such a vice” so that would not remain as a stain. The taste for it may remain as a temptation.

Purgatory is punishment in this sense given in Catechism 1472 on the double effect of eternal punishment and temporal punishment: “These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.”
 
The Church teaches that we are “graced enough” to resist at least mentally even to a bad habit, through the actual graces of God. The will to not sin is most important.

Contrition includes the firm resolve to fully give up “such a vice” so that would not remain as a stain. The taste for it may remain as a temptation.

Purgatory is punishment in this sense given in Catechism 1472 on the double effect of eternal punishment and temporal punishment: “These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.”
You ended the quote too soon. In full 1472 continues to state
:
A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

This makes sense in the Absolution I receive at Mass (TLM):

“Indulgéntiam, + absolutiónem, et remissiónem peccatórum nostrórum, tríbuat nobis omnípotens et miséricors Dóminus”

“May the almighty and merciful Lord grant us pardon + absolution, and remission of our sins”

Absolution is a freeing from blame or guilt; release from consequences, obligations, or penalties.

I am still confused as per the following paragraph 1473:

The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”

it seems to take back the absolution or perhaps redefine it…

Still working on this….

EP
 
You ended the quote too soon. In full 1472 continues to state
:
A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

This makes sense in the Absolution I receive at Mass (TLM):

“Indulgéntiam, + absolutiónem, et remissiónem peccatórum nostrórum, tríbuat nobis omnípotens et miséricors Dóminus”

“May the almighty and merciful Lord grant us pardon + absolution, and remission of our sins”

Absolution is a freeing from blame or guilt; release from consequences, obligations, or penalties.

I am still confused as per the following paragraph 1473:

The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”

it seems to take back the absolution or perhaps redefine it…

Still working on this….

EP
I didn’t include the entire quote because is was not about the two kinds.

Fervent charity means perfect contrition rather than imperfect contrition (attrition).

The prayer in Mass is not a priestly absolution * which would have the words “I absolve you”: May the Almighty and merciful God grant us pardon, + absolution, and remission of our sins.

There is still satisfaction required after absolution:**Catechism of the Catholic Church

Satisfaction**

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penance.”

1460 The *penance *the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent’s personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."63
The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of “him who strengthens” us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ . . . in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth “fruits that befit repentance.” These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father.64

​
A plenary indulgence can remove all the temporal punishment and is only available with certain conditions including reception of Holy Communion and Sacramental Confession within about 20 days before of after the indulgenced act.

** Modern Catholic Dictionary:***ABSOLUTION. **In the sacrament of penance, the act by which a qualified priest, having the necessary jurisdiction, remits the guilt and penalty due to sin. The new formula of absolution, since the Second Vatican Council, is: “God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” To which the penitent answers, “Amen.” In this formula the essential words are: “I absolve you.” For centuries, the Church used the deprecatory form of absolution, e.g., “May God absolve you from your sins.” This was really declarative in meaning, as is clear from the fact that in the whole of tradition the priest who absolved was looked upon as a judge who actually absolved, even though he used the subjunctive mood to express his affirmative judgment. (Etym. Latin absolvere, to free from; to absolve, acquit.)
 
I didn’t include the entire quote because is was not about the two kinds.

Fervent charity means perfect contrition rather than imperfect contrition (attrition).

The prayer in Mass is not a priestly absolution * which would have the words “I absolve you”: May the Almighty and merciful God grant us pardon, + absolution, and remission of our sins.

There is still satisfaction required after absolution:
**Catechism of the Catholic Church

Satisfaction**

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penance.”
​

It reads like going into a bank, being forgiven of a debt and then receiving a bill for the amount.

I mean when someone wrongs me, as happened yesterday when a salesman broke an item of mine accidentally, I forgave him and will pay for the damage out of my pocket. I require nothing from him, he is absolved of the debt and forgiven for the act.

As above justice would mandate he “suffer” for his “sin”.

So for me the entire mercy and justice debate gets confusing when one tries to account for both aspects at once. Absolution is an absolute.

BTW I went to confession with an FSSP priest and the absolution was in Latin that I am weak on but definitely heard absolved in the pronouncement. As I understand it it translates thusly:

May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you; and by His authority I absolve you from every bond of excommunication and interdict, so far as my power allows and your needs require. Thereupon, I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

May the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the merits of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of all the saints obtain for you that whatever good you do or whatever evil you bear might merit for you the remission of your sins, the increase of grace and the reward of everlasting life.

Thanks,

El paso​
 
It reads like going into a bank, being forgiven of a debt and then receiving a bill for the amount.

I mean when someone wrongs me, as happened yesterday when a salesman broke an item of mine accidentally, I forgave him and will pay for the damage out of my pocket. I require nothing from him, he is absolved of the debt and forgiven for the act.

As above justice would mandate he “suffer” for his “sin”.

So for me the entire mercy and justice debate gets confusing when one tries to account for both aspects at once. Absolution is an absolute.

BTW I went to confession with an FSSP priest and the absolution was in Latin that I am weak on but definitely heard absolved in the pronouncement. As I understand it it translates thusly:

May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you; and by His authority I absolve you from every bond of excommunication and interdict, so far as my power allows and your needs require. Thereupon, I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

May the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the merits of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of all the saints obtain for you that whatever good you do or whatever evil you bear might merit for you the remission of your sins, the increase of grace and the reward of everlasting life.

Thanks,

El paso
Eternal punishment is caused by God as justice for a sinful action. This eternal punishment can be forgiven during confession for mortal sin or during mass for venial sin. Time in purgatory (temporal punishment) is not caused by God but by ourselves. Every time we freely choose to commit a sin we are also choosing to punish ourselves during purgatory. No soul with sin can be in the presence of God. God is all powerful though, so he can speed up the process of purification if he wills it. We can hope to influence God through our prayer for the souls in purgatory. We can also help directly by offering our indulgences and suffering for the souls in purgatory.
 
It reads like going into a bank, being forgiven of a debt and then receiving a bill for the amount.

I mean when someone wrongs me, as happened yesterday when a salesman broke an item of mine accidentally, I forgave him and will pay for the damage out of my pocket. I require nothing from him, he is absolved of the debt and forgiven for the act.

As above justice would mandate he “suffer” for his “sin”.

So for me the entire mercy and justice debate gets confusing when one tries to account for both aspects at once. Absolution is an absolute.

BTW I went to confession with an FSSP priest and the absolution was in Latin that I am weak on but definitely heard absolved in the pronouncement. As I understand it it translates thusly:

May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you; and by His authority I absolve you from every bond of excommunication and interdict, so far as my power allows and your needs require. Thereupon, I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

May the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the merits of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of all the saints obtain for you that whatever good you do or whatever evil you bear might merit for you the remission of your sins, the increase of grace and the reward of everlasting life.

Thanks,

El paso
In the bank example: where is the wrong?

You said there are two acts: " I forgave him and …". where and indicates something other than forgiveness. The Church maintains that there is a double effect of sin: eternal and temporal.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica (Prima Secundæ Partis) Q87:

Article 6. Whether the debt of punishment remains after sin?Objection 3. Further, “Punishments are a kind of medicine” (Ethic. ii, 3). But a man is not given medicine after being cured of his disease. Therefore, when sin is removed the debt of punishment does not remain

Reply to Objection 3. When the stain is removed, the wound of sin is healed as regards the will. But punishment is still requisite in order that the other powers of the soul be healed, since they were so disordered by the sin committed, so that, to wit, the disorder may be remedied by the contrary of that which caused it. Moreover punishment is requisite in order to restore the equality of justice, and to remove the scandal given to others, so that those who were scandalized at the sin many be edified by the punishment, as may be seen in the example of David quoted above.

newadvent.org/summa/2.htm
So there is the stain, removed with absolution, and must also be satisfaction for1) healing the powers of the soul of the disorder,
2) to restore the equality of justice,
3) to remove the scandal given to others.
 
Is it true that a rosary said inside a church also gives a full indulgence for a soul?
Would it be redundant/superfluous to do another, more complex plenary indulgence for a person we have already said a rosary in church for after they died?
 
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