Purgatory… Indulgences

[El_PAso]

In the bank example: where is the wrong?

You said there are two acts: " I forgave him and …". where and indicates something other than forgiveness. The Church maintains that there is a double effect of sin: eternal and temporal.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica (Prima Secundæ Partis) Q87:

Article 6. Whether the debt of punishment remains after sin?Objection 3. Further, “Punishments are a kind of medicine” (Ethic. ii, 3). But a man is not given medicine after being cured of his disease. Therefore, when sin is removed the debt of punishment does not remain

Reply to Objection 3. When the stain is removed, the wound of sin is healed as regards the will. But punishment is still requisite in order that the other powers of the soul be healed, since they were so disordered by the sin committed, so that, to wit, the disorder may be remedied by the contrary of that which caused it. Moreover punishment is requisite in order to restore the equality of justice, and to remove the scandal given to others, so that those who were scandalized at the sin many be edified by the punishment, as may be seen in the example of David quoted above.

newadvent.org/summa/2.htm
So there is the stain, removed with absolution, and must also be satisfaction for1) healing the powers of the soul of the disorder,
2) to restore the equality of justice,
3) to remove the scandal given to others.

Once again a matter of semantics.

To me it is difficult to resolve, forgiveness and absolution and punishment. It’s like pick any two…

Perhaps it like the criminal who is caught, tried, guilty, sentenced, does time paroled but has not changed heart and intends on committing the crime again. He cannot be tried for the previous crime, he is forgiven and absolved but the “stain” of the crime remains and will probably be repeated with more dire results. He has a record…

He is forgiven and absolved by the legal system and the physical act of imprisonment for the initial crime. But in all senses still a criminal as he plots another crime.

(I must admit when younger I approached confession like this, with little resolve to avoid the sin again and of course continued to fall into sin.)

BUT not all criminals do time or even probation despite the crime. They are forgiven and absolved by a decree of the court and do not have to be punished. Accomplished via a good lawyer who pleads the case and probably the sacrifice of money.

The priest and Mary and the saints plead for us. Christ pays the price if we are willing to accept it. But this alone does not create an netenoua (sp.?) that is necessary to avoid lapsing into sin again.

Confession can provide the forgiveness and absolution but we must cultivate the change of heart and certain devotions give us a path, the “paying of the price”.

This is how I am understanding indulgences…

Thanks,

El Paso

 

[Vico]

Once again a matter of semantics.

To me it is difficult to resolve, forgiveness and absolution and punishment. It’s like pick any two…

Perhaps it like the criminal who is caught, tried, guilty, sentenced, does time paroled but has not changed heart and intends on committing the crime again. He cannot be tried for the previous crime, he is forgiven and absolved but the “stain” of the crime remains and will probably be repeated with more dire results. He has a record…

He is forgiven and absolved by the legal system and the physical act of imprisonment for the initial crime. But in all senses still a criminal as he plots another crime.

(I must admit when younger I approached confession like this, with little resolve to avoid the sin again and of course continued to fall into sin.)

BUT not all criminals do time or even probation despite the crime. They are forgiven and absolved by a decree of the court and do not have to be punished. Accomplished via a good lawyer who pleads the case and probably the sacrifice of money.

The priest and Mary and the saints plead for us. Christ pays the price if we are willing to accept it. But this alone does not create an netenoua (sp.?) that is necessary to avoid lapsing into sin again.

Confession can provide the forgiveness and absolution but we must cultivate the change of heart and certain devotions give us a path, the “paying of the price”.

This is how I am understanding indulgences…

Thanks,

El Paso

The meaning of absolution is multiple depending on what is applies to: “formal release from guilt, obligation, or punishment”. (Oxford) Absolution (in the sacrament of penance) is the act by which a qualified priest, having the necessary jurisdiction, remits the guilt and penalty due to sin.

Indulgences are granted through the Church* in addition to the effect of the penitential acts themselves.* Indulgences are not required.

Catechism discusses both pardon for the offense against God and reconciliation with the Church. 1422 "Those who approach the sacrament of Penance obtain pardon from God’s mercy for the offense committed against him, and are, at the same time, reconciled with the Church which they have wounded by their sins and which by charity, by example, and by prayer labors for their conversion."4
The interior penance or penance (metanoia) is discussed in the Catechism items 1430-1433. The conversion is accomplished through the Holy Spirit with our cooperation.

 

[El_PAso]

Hi,

This thread has become more of a discussion of purgatory as much as indulgences (which have been amply answered IMO)

The 21st Sunday in the EF Mass Gospel is Matthew 18:23-35, Parable of the Wicked Servant.
In it Christ states the master is taking account and the servant is woefully short, he and all he has will be sold for the debt. The servant falls down pleading and his debt is forgiven. We are left with the impression he is 100% absolved/forgiven of the debt. There is no mention of more time to pay the debt. Later of course he comes across another who owes him a slight amount and he roughly demands this. The Master learns of this and takes him to be tortured until his debt is paid.

I see this as a clear description of Purgatory. What happened is the servant was absolved, as us in Confession but did not have a change of heart. Either his plea for mercy was feigned or he was weak. Both can happen to us.He was taken to a place to pay the debt; Purgatory.

If he had not been demanding of others, IF he had forgiven trespasses etc… I believe he would have forgone Purgatory… Perhaps it is a sort of test, we beg and plead for forgiveness and promise not to do so and the test is to see how we fare. The servant failed and did not try to avoid the sin. He did not go to the master for advice, he did not recall his forgiveness.

Now the bottom line to rid ourselves completely of all sinful tendencies is difficult in this life, but not impossible. The Church gives us direction and I feel if we adhere to our purpose and live a converted life we will be spared of much of the “punishments” of purgatory.

I think the indulgences are the tools for a complete netenouya necessary to leave behind a state of sin and can be seen as reducing time in purgatory in degrees.

Once against requires a very keen ability to understand where one stands and which sins we still harbor even denying their sinfulness. I’ll still let out a curse every once in awhile from frustration. I work on it and am 99% better than I used to be. But that 1% will have to be dealt with in one fashion or another, as well as the underlying cause(s); pride, lack of charity/acceptance etc… I am convinced it is the devotions I practice that have washed away 99% of the issue and will continue to practice them not so much for indulgences but as to obtain a more complete change of heart.

Anyway…I never heard this parable as referring to Purgatory and it is pretty clear to me.

What do you think?

EP

 

[chopstocky]

Purgatory does not sound like fun and I know very incredible priests who are sure they will spend time there and I often wonder just what I’m in for….

I feel the same way and when I think about it I tremble. This thread has been very helpful to me. Thanks to all the contributors.

 

[Nelka]

Purgatory does not sound like fun and I know very incredible priests who are sure they will spend time there and I often wonder just what I’m in for….

You could say the same thing about childbirth but think of the joy that awaits you.

Purgatory is more “fun” than Hell and is temporal.

 

[chopstocky]

Good point! Though I still get the easy part of the childbirth thing- being a guy and all.

 

[fred_conty]

Here is an illustration of the length of purgatory.

Joe dies in 1990. And his friend Tom prays an indulgenced prayer for him in 1999 and this prayer has the effect of releasing Joe. Then Joe has spent 9 years in purgatory. And if Tom had not said that indulgenced prayer for him, then Joe would still be in purgatory today.

So that means Joe was in purgatory for nine years.
If prayers do not release him, then they are for what?

It seems to me that there is time in purgatory else those in purgatory would be there at least untill the end of the world. The end of the world is when many of the theologians think purgatory will end for everyone since the final judgement happens then. But that isn’t definite, it is possible that it may go on according to some.

Anyway, it seems that there is time in purgatory if some are released as in the illustration of Joe.

 

[sleepyhead64]

1. you commit a sin;
2. that sin affects one person - I can’t think of sins that only affect only 1 other person, but let’s say there is;
3. you seek absolution by going to confession;
4. you perform the assigned penance;
5. you are forgiven, it’s forgotten, you are saved -

BUT… what happens if that 1 sin is remembered by the 1 person who it directly affects?

the consequences of that single sin are visited upon you again and again by the person who complains about it - those heaps of complaints are offered by the person repeatedly until you are forgiven - if that person is a child, and you are 90yrs old, and you are on your deathbed, you do NOT go straight to heaven until that 1 person forgives you and absolves you in addition to Jesus forgiving and absolving you… if not once during that child’s life he never forgives that single sin, you are only released from the time in purgatory when he - the only person affected by your sin - has died himself.

Jesus forgave you and absolved you for any sins against Him (and all sins are against Him) - but He cannot force the other person to forgive you, nor absolve you…

NOW … imagine ALL your sins are affecting a host of other people, who likewise hate you and hold your sins against you all of their lives… Jesus forgives you and absolves you of any thing keeping you from heaven - but purgatory lasts until the last person affected by your sins has forgiven and absolved you or until he dies…

forgiveness of each person whose sins affected you AND
absolving those people from owing you anything; AND
asking forgiveness from Jesus AND
the person/people who your sins affect AND
seeking absolution from Jesus AND
the person/people who you sinned against

all that is required for any person to enter heaven…

if not perfect when you die, you go into purgatory until your sins are forgiven you and the debt you owe is satisfied by each person you sinned against…

that is why I seek forgiveness each and every time I enter the Church, do the penance offered by the priest, seek forgiveness from everyone I may meet (and from those I may just happen across) and seek absolution by offering to repay, replace, or perform some act of reparation to them as well, and seek the indulgences I am capable of for those in purgatory still if possible, and for me in the last…