Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[steve_b]

Let me ask this then. Are the souls that you say are in Heaven waiting to be resurrected with their bodies able to function, and see all that is going on in the world?

It’s not about what I say as if its my opinion. I’ve always provided evidence from scripture and tradition for what I say. The following doesn’t happen without a particular judgement for each soul having been made at their individual death. Luke 16:19-31

Before John dies, Jesus gives him a vision of heaven. He sees souls in heaven. They obviously have memory intellect and will fully operational. They are in heaven and in this example, they are talking about those dwelling on earth who appear to have escaped retribution for their bad deeds…Apocalypse (Revelation) 6:9-11
B:

Witnessing every immoral act by their family, relatives and friends?

I never said that happens nor even suggested it.
B:

Also do you pray to them like you do the saints ?

Anyone in heaven is a saint.

 

[BarryI]

It’s not about what I say as if its my opinion. I’ve always provided evidence from scripture and tradition for what I say. The following doesn’t happen without a particular judgement for each soul having been made at their individual death. Luke 16:19-31

Before John dies, Jesus gives him a vision of heaven. He sees souls in heaven. They obviously have memory intellect and will fully operational. They are in heaven and in this example, they are talking about those dwelling on earth who appear to have escaped retribution for their bad deeds…Apocalypse (Revelation) 6:9-11/

I never said that happens nor even suggested it.
Wouldn’t these souls in heaven then be there to help Jesus in His kingdom to teach all those left on earth on how we are to live now as it is written" they shall all be taught by God"

Anyone in heaven is a saint.

 

[BarryI]

BarryI:
One more question. How will everyone be resurrected? Meaning will you be the age you were when you died? Or will you be in your prime youth again. If so then won’t everyone be around the same age. Except for the children that died at a young age or survived the last day?

 

[steve_b]

"Barryl:

Wouldn’t these souls in heaven then be there to help Jesus in His kingdom to teach all those left on earth on how we are to live now as it is written" they shall all be taught by God"

Think of it as a family affair, family members who are triumphant in heaven that continually pray and interceed for their loved ones on earth. catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-biblical-reason-catholics-pray-to-saints-for-intercession

One more question. How will everyone be resurrected? Meaning will you be the age you were when you died? Or will you be in your prime youth again. If so then won’t everyone be around the same age. Except for the children that died at a young age or survived the last day?

I have no doubt, those in heaven will be the absolute best version of themself.

 

[pablope]

One more question. How will everyone be resurrected? Meaning will you be the age you were when you died? Or will you be in your prime youth again. If so then won’t everyone be around the same age. Except for the children that died at a young age or survived the last day?

atthew 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels[a] in heaven.

Meaning…those in heaven are like angels…or have attributes of angels.

 

[ejp123]

Sorry but I’m not trolling or looking for any type of arguments. I initially responded for someone, anyone, to refer me to the passage in the Bible where either Jesus or any of the Bible mentions purgatory. That’s all. Nothing more. Didnt want to have any discussions about it, just where I need to go to actually read it that came from Jesus or one of the Bible writers . Sorry if anyone was offended. Now that bring said. No one still referred me to that

If you are looking for the word “purgatory” in scripture you are not going to find it. However, the passages pointed out to you clearly define and describe it. Stop splitting hairs.

 

[BarryI]

If you are looking for the word “purgatory” in scripture you are not going to find it. However, the passages pointed out to you clearly define and describe it. Stop splitting hairs.

Sorry EJP, but you are being misled into thinking there is a so called place. Jesus never mentioned it or alluded to it that there was such a place. Surely if there was, He would have told the disciples about it and to go and preach that. He didnt . He gave them The Word and His Commandment,“Love one another as I love you”

 

[RaiseMeUp]

Sorry EJP, but you are being misled into thinking there is a so called place. Jesus never mentioned it or alluded to it that there was such a place. Surely if there was, He would have told the disciples about it and to go and preach that. He didnt . He gave them The Word and His Commandment,“Love one another as I love you”

There are many Biblical references to Purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.”

Luke 12:59: “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”

Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.”

Instead of applying a place to purgatory - think of it more as a state. A temporal state of purification. Nothing unclean can enter the kingdom.

 

[ejp123]

Sorry EJP, but you are being misled into thinking there is a so called place. Jesus never mentioned it or alluded to it that there was such a place. Surely if there was, He would have told the disciples about it and to go and preach that. He didnt . He gave them The Word and His Commandment,“Love one another as I love you”

I don’t think so, Barry. You refuse to see the obvious.

 

[Church_Militant]

Sorry EJP, but you are being misled into thinking there is a so called place. Jesus never mentioned it or alluded to it that there was such a place. Surely if there was, He would have told the disciples about it and to go and preach that. He didnt . He gave them The Word and His Commandment,“Love one another as I love you”

Really? You need to spend more time obeying what St. Paul enjoined, “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” (2nd Timothy 2:15)

I did my homework and here’s the result.
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

Oh, and can you provide a single verse of scripture where Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ commissioned any writings? In fact you cannot because such does not exist, so your assertion that Our Lord “gave them The Word” is itself an unscriptural statement. Who then is being misled?

Also, Our Blessed Lord gave us many commandments and commissioned His church to [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.(Matthew 28), so again you fail to present the full and authentic New Testament Gospel. Again, I ask you, who then is being misled?

 

[BarryI]

Really? You need to spend more time obeying what St. Paul enjoined, “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” (2nd Timothy 2:15)

I did my homework and here’s the result.
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

Oh, and can you provide a single verse of scripture where Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ commissioned any writings? In fact you cannot because such does not exist, so your assertion that Our Lord “gave them The Word” is itself an unscriptural statement. Who then is being misled?

Also, Our Blessed Lord gave us many commandments and commissioned His church to [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.(Matthew 28), so again you fail to present the full and authentic New Testament Gospel. Again, I ask you, who then is being misled?

Well then I am sorry if I offended you or anyone. You wilbelieve what. You will and I will believe what Jesus taught the Apostles that was written in the Bible and what has come to me through the Holy Spirit. I will not accept traditions of human beliefs , only the truth as it was written and recorded in the 4 Gospels.

 

[BarryI]

Well then I am sorry if I offended you or anyone. You wilbelieve what. You will and I will believe what Jesus taught the Apostles thai t was written in the Bible and what has come to me through the Holy Spirit. I will not accept traditions of human beliefs , only the truth as it was written and recorded in the 4 Gospels.

I have to add a comment on the question asking me to show a scripture where Jesus commissioned writings. The basis for that reply is just absurd. Jesus knew what He taught would be recorded so He did not have to specifically “Tell” the apostles to write things down. That is that simple.

 

[Church_Militant]

Well then I am sorry if I offended you or anyone.

I didn’t even infer that I was offended.

You wilbelieve what. You will and I will believe what Jesus taught the Apostles that was written in the Bible and what has come to me through the Holy Spirit.

No, see this is where you get things all messed up. The reverse is actually true. You believe errors that modern men have taught you, since you cannot provide a single verse of God’s Word where it lays claim to the authority that you have been taught to ascribe to it.
See the following threads:

• “If anyone teaches/preaches something that is not in scripture”
• It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
• It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)

I will not accept traditions of human beliefs , only the truth as it was written and recorded in the 4 Gospels

So…are you now asserting that you reject the inspired canon of all except the Gospels? That would be odd coming from a professing Christian.

The other error here is that all of the New Testament began as oral Christian tradition and teachings that later too about 4 centuries to codify and discern as to what was inspired and what was not. Don’t look into these historical facts because they will further counter what you have been taught by modern men.

I have to add a comment on the question asking me to show a scripture where Jesus commissioned writings. The basis for that reply is just absurd. Jesus knew what He taught would be recorded so He did not have to specifically “Tell” the apostles to write things down. That is that simple.

Yet you are the one who asserts that everything that Christians believe and practice has to be in the Bible. You bang on Catholics for our knowledge of Sacred Tradition, Christian history, and the Bible and yet you propose beliefs that are not found in scripture which contradicts your own Sola Scriptura doctrine because that doctrine itself has no foundation in the Word of God.

What Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ knew is not the issue, and no faithful Catholic would argue that He indeed did know, however, you yourself brought up the commandments of Our Lord and I merely pointed out that no such command or commission is found in His words. The command to teach and make disciples no doubt implies those writings, certainly, because that is how most humans retain and pass on long term information…but again…it was not commanded. You might also take note of the fact that only 5 of the apostles (of 12) actually penned any of the New Testament. Matthew, John, Jude, James, and Peter. That’s it. Paul, though prolific, was not one of the original 12, nor was Mark or Luke, so clearly all the apostles did not feel any such command or commission to write anything.

 

[steve_b]

Sorry EJP, but you are being misled into thinking there is a so called place. Jesus never mentioned it or alluded to it that there was such a place. Surely if there was, He would have told the disciples about it and to go and preach that. He didnt . He gave them The Word and His Commandment,“Love one another as I love you”

Barry,.

Back in ~180 a.d. Irenaeus wrote against Gnostics. No matter the point, they argued over it. If scripture went against them they discretited scripture, if tradition went against them, they discretited tradition.

Thus Irenaeus says

1. Such are the adversaries with whom we have to deal, my very dear friend, endeavouring like slippery serpents to escape at all points. Where-fore they must be opposed at all points, if per-chance, by cutting off their retreat, we may succeed in turning them back to the truth. For, though it is not an easy thing for a soul under the influence of error to repent, yet, on the other hand, it is not altogether impossible to escape from error when the truth is brought alongside it.

I would just add,

If one looks back on all the 400+ responses, there have been more than enough resources covering scripture +Tradition that gave the answer. It doesn’t matter that you disagree. You haven’t disproved the scriptures presented.

 

[BarryI]

I didn’t even infer that I was offended. :shrug:No, see this is where you get things all messed up. The reverse is actually true. You believe errors that modern men have taught you, since you cannot provide a single verse of God’s Word where it lays claim to the authority that you have been taught to ascribe to it.
See the following threads:

• “If anyone teaches/preaches something that is not in scripture”
• It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
• It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)

So…are you now asserting that you reject the inspired canon of all except the Gospels? That would be odd coming from a professing Christian.

The other error here is that all of the New Testament began as oral Christian tradition and teachings that later too about 4 centuries to codify and discern as to what was inspired and what was not. Don’t look into these historical facts because they will further counter what you have been taught by modern men.Yet you are the one who asserts that everything that Christians believe and practice has to be in the Bible. You bang on Catholics for our knowledge of Sacred Tradition, Christian history, and the Bible and yet you propose beliefs that are not found in scripture which contradicts your own Sola Scriptura doctrine because that doctrine itself has no foundation in the Word of God.

What Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ knew is not the issue, and no faithful Catholic would argue that He indeed did know, however, you yourself brought up the commandments of Our Lord and I merely pointed out that no such command or commission is found in His words. The command to teach and make disciples no doubt implies those writings, certainly, because that is how most humans retain and pass on long term information…but again…it was not commanded. You might also take note of the fact that only 5 of the apostles (of 12) actually penned any of the New Testament. Matthew, John, Jude, James, and Peter. That’s it. Paul, though prolific, was not one of the original 12, nor was Mark or Luke, so clearly all the apostles did not feel any such command or commission to write anything.

As I have said before, I am only being guided by God’s Holy Spirit in this matter.What was written was written and that is from Christ Himself. So, that is what I believe.That’s it ,there’s nothing more to it.I can’t make you believe what I believe, nor am I trying to. I only ever wanted was where Jesus told the Apostles about a place called purgatory. He talked about “Hades”,and “Gehenna”, but not Purgatory. As I stated earlier, if we are to believe in something that is that important, then He would have surely brought it to light, which he didn’t.

 

[Evan]

As I have said before, I am only being guided by God’s Holy Spirit in this matter.What was written was written and that is from Christ Himself. So, that is what I believe.That’s it ,there’s nothing more to it.I can’t make you believe what I believe, nor am I trying to. I only ever wanted was where Jesus told the Apostles about a place called purgatory. He talked about “Hades”,and “Gehenna”, but not Purgatory. As I stated earlier, if we are to believe in something that is that important, then He would have surely brought it to light, which he didn’t.

Why do you think it is so “important” that Jesus would spend a lot of time discussing the ins and outs of POST judgement existence. Jesus (based on the bible) spent little time on Heaven and Hell. Most if his teachings were concerning love of God and love of man. Once you have died, then comes judgement. There is no need for you to know the exact mechanisms save that you are then set to either go up or down . The church knows, based on the bible and tradition, what must occur (a preparation before you meet your bridegroom). But it is not important for you to know. The judgement Christ gives will be based on your life here, not on what you know about the afterlife.

The most important element of the teaching is that we should pray for the Church militant and the Church suffering. Since the Church prays for all in purgatory, you will be held up to God for assistance by us after your decease, even if you are unwilling to pray for those who have gone on before.

 

[BarryI]

Why do you think it is so “important” that Jesus would spend a lot of time discussing the ins and outs of POST judgement existence. Jesus (based on the bible) spent little time on Heaven and Hell. Most if his teachings were concerning love of God and love of man. Once you have died, then comes judgement. There is no need for you to know the exact mechanisms save that you are then set to either go up or down . The church knows, based on the bible and tradition, what must occur (a preparation before you meet your bridegroom). But it is not important for you to know. The judgement Christ gives will be based on your life here, not on what you know about the afterlife.

The most important element of the teaching is that we should pray for the Church militant and the Church suffering. Since the Church prays for all in purgatory, you will be held up to God for assistance by us after your decease, even if you are unwilling to pray for those who have gone on before.

No, Jesus did spend a lot of time talking about staying awake , and entering the kingdom of heaven, and parables about such, like, the weeds in the field, the 10 virgins, the master and the 3 servants with the talents, the faithful servant,the prodigal son, Lazarus and the rich man,etc.All having to do with judgement.

 

[ejp123]

Barry, if Catholics are wrong about the scriptures indicating purgatory, then what do you think they mean? And there have been plenty of scriptures provided to you throughout this thread.

 

[MJCamp]

Barry, if Catholics are wrong about the scriptures indicating purgatory, then what do you think they mean? And there have been plenty of scriptures provided to you throughout this thread.

Yes, please interpret. I would like to know if I am misinformed

 

[Church_Militant]

As I have said before,** I am only being guided by God’s Holy Spirit **

in this matter.What was written was written and that is from Christ Himself. So you say, yet you disagree with 2,000 years of Christian history as well as documented Jewish belief prior to that (as I have already shown), so one has to wonder if, since God is not a God of confusion, then are you really guided by the Holy Spirit who cannot teach error but guides us into all truth.

Moreover, you assert that Our Lord did not teach this in spite of teh many passages that we have shown you where He does indeed implicitly teach it, even as He also implicitly taught the Trinity. Or do you reject that fundamental Christian doctrine as well?

So, that is what I believe.That’s it ,there’s nothing more to it.I can’t make you believe what I believe, nor am I trying to. I only ever wanted was where Jesus told the Apostles about a place called purgatory. He talked about “Hades”,and “Gehenna”, but not Purgatory. As I stated earlier, if we are to believe in something that is that important, then He would have surely brought it to light,** which he didn’t**

.So you say…though the Word of God proves otherwise.