Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

  • Thread starter Thread starter fabio_rocha
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
… As I stated earlier, if we are to believe in something that is that important, then He would have surely brought it to light, which he didn’t.
Why do you believe He didn’t? Is it just because you aren’t seeing Jesus Himself explicitly state such in His own Words as recorded in the Gospels?

By the way, don’t the Scriptures tell us, explicitly, that not everything Jesus said or did is recorded in writing? So, you don’t actually know that He didn’t teach on the subject…all you know is that YOU don’t see it in the Scriptures…even though it really is there, at least implicitly, as evidenced by the Scritural passages already provided in this thread.

For you to support your assertion that He didn’t bring it to light, you would have to prove:
  1. that everything that is important is written in Scripture
  2. that Scripture is the onyl source of Christian teachign we have
The problem you will run into is that:
  1. Scripture tells us that not everything Jesus said or did is written…so to say the unimportant stuff is what isn’t written is to say that SOME of what Jesus taught isn’t important. That’s not a position I’d want to take.
  2. Scripture explicitly tells us that there is another source of Truth…the PREACHED Word. It also explicitly tells us who is the upholder and defender of Truth…it is the Church.
So, your position is not only counter-Scriptural…it also falls apart under scrutiny. Your only basis for your assertion is your own personal opinion, true?
 
Why do you believe He didn’t? Is it just because you aren’t seeing Jesus Himself explicitly state such in His own Words as recorded in the Gospels?

By the way, don’t the Scriptures tell us, explicitly, that not everything Jesus said or did is recorded in writing? So, you don’t actually know that He didn’t teach on the subject…all you know is that YOU don’t see it in the Scriptures…even though it really is there, at least implicitly, as evidenced by the Scritural passages already provided in this thread.

For you to support your assertion that He didn’t bring it to light, you would have to prove:
  1. that everything that is important is written in Scripture
  2. that Scripture is the onyl source of Christian teachign we have
The problem you will run into is that:
  1. Scripture tells us that not everything Jesus said or did is written…so to say the unimportant stuff is what isn’t written is to say that SOME of what Jesus taught isn’t important. That’s not a position I’d want to take.
  2. Scripture explicitly tells us that there is another source of Truth…the PREACHED Word. It also explicitly tells us who is the upholder and defender of Truth…it is the Church.
So, your position is not only counter-Scriptural…it also falls apart under scrutiny. Your only basis for your assertion is your own personal opinion, true?
No it is not my personal opinion. There are countless others who question this also. What you believe came from the minds of man that was taught and people followed tradition , not truth. If what you believe is what was taught by those who came after the apostles and you accept as truth, then that is your belief. You see the problem with teaching word of mouth over centuries tends to get distorted and the story changes. Don’t believe me, you know the way it works when someone tells something to someone and it gets told to dozens of others. By the time it gets back to you it is totally different. When it is written down, as it was, then there is very little room for error.
 
Sorry EJP, but you are being misled into thinking there is a so called place. Jesus never mentioned it or alluded to it that there was such a place. Surely if there was, He would have told the disciples about it and to go and preach that. He didnt . He gave them The Word and His Commandment,“Love one another as I love you”
You even acknowledged back in post 158, that you saw the connection between Paul’s letter to the Corinthians and The Holy Spirit taking from Jesus and giving it to Paul. In the case of post 172, which answered all your points, you were highly selective after that post, as to which posts you would respond to. I suspect because you knew at that point the issue had been answered.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10914151&postcount=157
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10915386&postcount=158 you see the point being made but scramble to find an out.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10919001&postcount=162
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10925384&postcount=172 ***

Before Saul was Paul, he didn’t know who Jesus was.Acts Of Apostles 9:4-5
You keep asking where Jesus taught about purification after death? After Paul’s conversion, Paul says he was taught by Jesus during his conversion process and also taught by Peter lGa****atians 1:11-18

And Paul was also taught by the HS. The HS only taught what He heard from Jesus. Therefore what came from the HS only came from Jesus. John 16:12-15

Therefore when Paul wrote the following, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 it came from Jesus. Do you understand that? Tell me you understand that. The CC calls this process purgation or purgatory. You can call it whatever you want but it exists. And it doesn’t necessarily look like fun.
 
As I have said before, I am only being guided by God’s Holy Spirit in this matter.

How do you know, or how can you actually tell, Barryl…if it is indeed the Holy Spirit?

If you do and decide for yourself…then you are following a doctrine of Man…a man of your own creation and you are not following the Bible.

Here is the Biblical example of St. Paul…and it should follow St. Paul’s example:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

So here is my question to you…How do you follow the example of St. Paul?

If you, then the revelation to you should be similar, not contrary to what was revealed to St. Paul.

And see how this pattern is written and exhorted by John:

from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

And so…if you are the one deciding for youself…then you are going against Scripture itself…against your own claims and beliefs.
What was written was written and that is from Christ Himself. So, that is what I believe.That’s it ,there’s nothing more to it.I can’t make you believe what I believe, nor am I trying to. I only ever wanted was where Jesus told the Apostles about a place called purgatory. He talked about “Hades”,and “Gehenna”, but not Purgatory. As I stated earlier, if we are to believe in something that is that important, then He would have surely brought it to light, which he didn’t.
 
No it is not my personal opinion. There are countless others who question this also.
Just because a group teaches something does not make it true and correct doctrine. Many n-C communities teach Sola Scriptura and yet the Bible does not support that errant doctrine, as has been proved many times even right here on CAF.
It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)
“If anyone teaches/preaches something that is not in scripture”

So if they are wrong on this very fundamental doctrine of theirs, then it stands to reason that they may very well be in error in other related beliefs and doctrines.
What you believe came from the minds of man that was taught and people followed tradition , not truth.
I’ve already shown you that Purgatory is found in both the Old and New Testaments and was taught by the Jews long before Christianity came into existence, so you have the witness of the Word of God and pre-Christian sources as well. Why so many n-Cs fail to believe it makes many of us Catholics wonder if they are really looking at the facts instead of taking some modern man’s opinion as their own.
If what you believe is what was taught by those who came after the apostles and you accept as truth, then that is your belief. You see the problem with teaching word of mouth over centuries tends to get distorted and the story changes. Don’t believe me, you know the way it works when someone tells something to someone and it gets told to dozens of others. By the time it gets back to you it is totally different. When it is written down, as it was, then there is very little room for error.
Sorry, but we’ve already shown you that this was indeed written down in the Bible as well as Jewish teaching documents as well. I don’t believe that you have the courage of your convictions to prayerfully reexamine what you have been taught to see if it really conforms to the Word of God and the historically verifiable teachings of the Christian church.

The New Testament has something to say to us about all this.

***"but test everything; hold fast what is good, " 1st Thessalonians 5:21

"***Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."
2nd Timothy 2:15


It’s much the same as the assertion by some n-Cs that their worship is just like the early Christians, when in fact, one can read very concise early church documents that describe their services and it certainly does not come across as modern n-C worship at all. See What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like?

Again, if they are wrong about this, then what all else are they wrong about?
 
Just because a group teaches something does not make it true and correct doctrine. Many n-C communities teach Sola Scriptura and yet the Bible does not support that errant doctrine, as has been proved many times even right here on CAF.
It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)
“If anyone teaches/preaches something that is not in scripture”

So if they are wrong on this very fundamental doctrine of theirs, then it stands to reason that they may very well be in error in other related beliefs and doctrines.I’ve already shown you that Purgatory is found in both the Old and New Testaments and was taught by the Jews long before Christianity came into existence, so you have the witness of the Word of God and pre-Christian sources as well. Why so many n-Cs fail to believe it makes many of us Catholics wonder if they are really looking at the facts instead of taking some modern man’s opinion as their own.
Sorry, but we’ve already shown you that this was indeed written down in the Bible as well as Jewish teaching documents as well. I don’t believe that you have the courage of your convictions to prayerfully reexamine what you have been taught to see if it really conforms to the Word of God and the historically verifiable teachings of the Christian church.

The New Testament has something to say to us about all this.

***"but test everything; hold fast what is good, " 1st Thessalonians 5:21

"***Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."
2nd Timothy 2:15


It’s much the same as the assertion by some n-Cs that their worship is just like the early Christians, when in fact, one can read very concise early church documents that describe their services and it certainly does not come across as modern n-C worship at all. See What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like?

Again, if they are wrong about this, then what all else are they wrong about?
And now I would like to quote about purgatory from "The New Catholic Encyclopedia’ that is written pertaining to “purgatory”. “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on “tradition”,not Sacred Scripture.” Well now, imagine that! And written in THE NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA. Now all along I have been asking for passages in the written Bible where Jesus taught this, but no one could provide me with any. After being bombarded by many “other” passages that were taken out of concept and had no bearing whatsoever as to a place,or state called purgatory,and going on what is actually written and my understanding of it, I did pray and ask for guidance on this matter and was directed to look here. This is what I found. You all can read it for yourself and see that my questions were valid and never answered .It also says that “prayers and other good works were offered for the departed souls as a matter of common practice”.It also states that the “doctrine”,(there’s that word again) of purgatory is not explicitly stated in the Bible.
So, I am not trying to “one up” anyone here. I never was, nor did I ever look to engage in a heated discussion about purgatory. I only wanted "scriptural passages, and always said that if it was true, then it would have been really important and that Jesus would have surely enlightened the Apostles to this and it would have been written. You have to ask yourself, "Why would God leave this to be a big secret? So based on my guidance and findings, I have my firm answer from a source written by the Catholic Church, that it is based on tradition . I wish you all well, all of those who were active in this thread .Also, I always quoted what Jesus said, like, “for those who seek, they will find” ( I did) God bless all of you and I hope you have an open mind about what I have just revealed here.
 
BarryI,

Please link to that article you quote as I can’t find it. In any event, you have been given passages of Scripture in combination with passages from some Fathers to show that certain verses which were given to you were interpreted as a proof of Purgatory by them. Anyone running through the thread will see that. You seem to be not convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures regarding Purgatory, and that is unfortunate. This fact does, on a side note, show one of the problems with “Sola Scriptura”, something which we Catholics reject.

article on PurgatoryCatholic Encyclopedia’s, citing 2 Maccabees 12:43-46, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, as well as Patristic evidence related to these very verses (at least the ones from the NT.) It shows how all of these verses prove Purgatory and the argument from Sacred Scripture is just one of the proofs for Purgatory given in that article.

Also, you were given St. Matthew 5:26, with testimony from St. Cyprian and Tertullian that this verse proves Purgatory.

I don’t think it is fair to say you have been given no Scripture. Wouldn’t it be more fair to say that the Scripture that has been provided doesn’t convince you? This is unfortunate, but there is Scripture, as well as Tradition, and the 2,000 year teaching of the Catholic Church, plus the evidence cited of a post-mortem purification in Jewish belief prior to the NT era (see my citations of 2 Maccabees and Josephus’ “Jewish Wars”)

Off the top of my head, besides that article I just gave you a link to I can give you 2 more Catholic sources which cite Scriptural evidence for Purgatory: 1) Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s document “Spe Salvi”, which was also cited in this thread more than once, and 2.) Dr. Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma”.
 
BarryI,

Please link to that article you quote as I can’t find it. In any event, you have been given passages of Scripture in combination with passages from some Fathers to show that certain verses which were given to you were interpreted as a proof of Purgatory by them. Anyone running through the thread will see that. You seem to be not convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures regarding Purgatory, and that is unfortunate. This fact does, on a side note, show one of the problems with “Sola Scriptura”, something which we Catholics reject.

Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia’s article on Purgatory, citing 2 Maccabees 12:43-46, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, as well as Patristic evidence related to these very verses (at least the ones from the NT.) It shows how all of these verses prove Purgatory and the argument from Sacred Scripture is just one of the proofs for Purgatory given in that article.

Also, you were given St. Matthew 5:26, with testimony from St. Cyprian and Tertullian that this verse proves Purgatory.

I don’t think it is fair to say you have been given no Scripture. Wouldn’t it be more fair to say that the Scripture that has been provided doesn’t convince you? This is unfortunate, but there is Scripture, as well as Tradition, and the 2,000 year teaching of the Catholic Church, plus the evidence cited of a post-mortem purification in Jewish belief prior to the NT era (see my citations of 2 Maccabees and Josephus’ “Jewish Wars”)

Off the top of my head, besides that article I just gave you a link to I can give you 2 more Catholic sources which cite Scriptural evidence for Purgatory: 1) Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s document “Spe Salvi”, which was also cited in this thread more than once, and 2.) Dr. Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma”.
It is not an article. It is the section in The New Catholic Encyclopedia under “P”. And go to purgatory.I’m sorry if you can’t come to terms that it is not based on Sacred Scripture, but tradition. Hey it was written in the New Catholic Encyclopedia, it’s not something I made up. I know it’s hard for people to accept after believing what they’ve believed all their lives, but when the facts present the real truth, it takes a long time to accept. This I understand. Also remember God had said this in Isaiah and Jesus quoted Isaiah saying"this people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, In vain do they worship Me, teaching as “doctrine”(there’s that word again) human tradition. Which is what we ihave here.
 
The Catholic Church took the Judgement Seat of Christ that takes place in Heaven for saved souls who are not burned or tormented in which items are purged by fire and re-named it a place called purgatory and then decided that the souls themselves were tormented by fire .

You die and go to Heaven or Hell.

What is interesting though is the number of differing opinions of the catholics here as to just what occurs in purgatory.

When I was a kid, the nuns taught purgatory was like hell, only not forever. Seems the story has changed in the last 60 years.
 
It is not an article. It is the section in The New Catholic Encyclopedia under “P”. And go to purgatory.I’m sorry if you can’t come to terms that it is not based on Sacred Scripture, but tradition. Hey it was written in the New Catholic Encyclopedia, it’s not something I made up. I know it’s hard for people to accept after believing what they’ve believed all their lives, but when the facts present the real truth, it takes a long time to accept. This I understand. Also remember God had said this in Isaiah and Jesus quoted Isaiah saying"this people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, In vain do they worship Me, teaching as “doctrine”(there’s that word again) human tradition. Which is what we ihave here.
BarryI,

I mean, can you provide the link to where you pulled that quote from please? I don’t see it online, just the quote you gave from some not so stellar websites at first glance. It would be nice to see the context.

You do realize that the New Catholic Encyclopedia is just one Catholic source, and even then I am not able to see the whole work quoted from there. I have given you others as I have shown (“Catholic Encylopedia”, Dr. Ott, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, various Early Church Fathers.) This is not exhaustive either.

Far from what you are thinking, I was a Protestant for about 10 years or so before becoming Catholic about 4 years ago. It was the fact that the early Church was Catholic, which is why I converted (and of course, the prompting of the Holy Spirit.)

Sorry, but your assertion that Purgatory is a man made tradition is just that, your assertion; and it is an erroneous assertion. You and your interpretation of the Bible are not the arbiters of truth. One example of a doctrine taught (by some) but is merely a human tradition is the idea of “soul sleep” which you seem to have promoted in this thread.
 
The Catholic Church took the Judgement Seat of Christ that takes place in Heaven for saved souls who are not burned or tormented in which items are purged by fire and re-named it a place called purgatory and then decided that the souls themselves were tormented by fire .

You die and go to Heaven or Hell.

What is interesting though is the number of differing opinions of the catholics here as to just what occurs in purgatory.

When I was a kid, the nuns taught purgatory was like hell, only not forever. Seems the story has changed in the last 60 years.
You act as if Purgatory did not have it’s roots in Judaism. Catholic teaching regarding Purgatory is as follows:

“…there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular ‘place’ in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.”

Source: catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory

Let me ask you this, since most people who die in God’s friendship are still sinning (albeit not mortally) at the end of their life and/or still have attachment to sin, and yet there is no sinning or attachment to sin in Heaven (Rev. 21:27), what do you believe happens between death and Heaven for such people?
 
You act as if Purgatory did not have it’s roots in Judaism. Catholic teaching regarding Purgatory is as follows:

“…there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular ‘place’ in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.”

Source: catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory

Let me ask you this, since most people who die in God’s friendship are still sinning (albeit not mortally) at the end of their life and/or still have attachment to sin, and yet there is no sinning or attachment to sin in Heaven (Rev. 21:27), what do you believe happens between death and Heaven for such people?
I believe that what happens is exactly like it is described in Scripture.
You stand before Jesus Christ. Your life , with it"s motives, it’s shortcomings, it’s successes, how what you did or did not do effected people( known and unknown),your faith, your loyalty to Christ, all these kinds of things, are thrown forth as hay, wood, paper, and gold, silver, and jewels. They are caste into a fire, to be purged. That which is burnable, it burns away. The non-burnable is purified ( like gold is purified by fire). Only the purified items are left and these are part of your crowns and on your white robe.

You see, your name is written in, by the angels, a book. And next to it, every sin you ever commited, knowingly or unknowingly. If you are a Christian, a believer, a repentant sinner, then your name is also written in the Book Of Life. The first Book is opened and your name is looked for. But, it is no longer there, because all is seen is the Blood of Jesus Christ. The sins are now buried in the Sea of Forgetfullness, never to be remembered no more. Then the Book Of Life is opened and your name is read aloud.

Obviously, there are and always will be , until Jesus purges the whole earth with fire and all is made new again. there will Christians in name only ( they shall be denied by Chrsit because He will never have known them). There will be people who have become so wicked that though they once accepted Christ, they committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and will end up finally in the lake of Fire. And there will be, in Heaven, those Christians who never earned any crowns , nor have any to show for their lives.

Our lives should be one of continuing examination of what we are doing, to be repentant of sins, so when we stand before Jesus, something will remain after that purging fire. And, most importantly, you do these things, not for yourself, you do them for the Glory of God.

But, we are human with all our human failures. We are sinful, selfish creatures, aren’t we? But, we cannot grasp the depth and height of the Love God has for us. Not just what endured for us. How easy He made it for us to enter into heaven. His Forgiveness. If only we accept it. That is the Narrow Road. One simply acceptance of forgiveness. Be it by your priest or in a private confession between you and God.

I don’t know why all this was changed into a place called purgatory, a place of punishment and torment for various durations which can be shortened by the prayers of others. I am in no way trying to discourage your belief that that is how it happens because in the end, we shall be purged.

Yes, sin cannot enter into heaven. that is the reason for His Blood. But who and what you were, is who and what you will be when we stand before Him, all of our most inner being cleansed.

On this side of life, it sounds all so scary. But, when we shall cross over, I suspect, it will feel so wonderful, to be unburdened.

Truly, we are not so far apart. You accept that it is a separate place and it touches the soul with some torment. I accept it is in Heaven and it is representive items that are burned. But we both know, there will always be some cleaning up to do.
 
Hi Doxiemom,

I apologize for being cranky in my response and for jumping on you; behind a keyboard one can forget their manners.

I’m going to cut your response into 3 posts and won’t address everything even then
I believe that what happens is exactly like it is described in Scripture.
You stand before Jesus Christ. Your life , with it"s motives, it’s shortcomings, it’s successes, how what you did or did not do effected people( known and unknown),your faith, your loyalty to Christ, all these kinds of things, are thrown forth as hay, wood, paper, and gold, silver, and jewels. They are caste into a fire, to be purged. That which is burnable, it burns away. The non-burnable is purified ( like gold is purified by fire). Only the purified items are left and these are part of your crowns and on your white robe…
Ok, I see mostly you are focused on 1 Corinthians 3:15, so I’ll ask you a couple of questions. First a brief explanation, we Catholics, as you may well know, believe in a particular judgement that happens for everyone immediately after death, and a general judgment that happens where everyone is judged at the end of time.

*Do you believe in both of these also?

Which judgment do you believe 1 Cor. 3:15 references?

Also, would you agree that in 1 Cor. 3:15, the person as well as their works are going through the “fire”?*

On a side not, the white robes you reference I believe are from the Book of Revelation and I believe they are symbolic, as I received a white garment when I was Baptized (conditionally), Confirmed, and received 1st Communion in the Catholic Church about 4 years ago.

As Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary explains on Rev. 7:14:

“Ver. 14. White in the blood of the Lamb. That is, they have been cleansed and purified from sin, by the death, merits, and grace of Christ crucified. (Witham) — The whole of this verse must be understood in a mystical sense, for we are said to make our garments white in the blood of the Lamb, when we enter into his Church by baptism, or wash away our sins by penance or martyrdom. (Calmet)”

I was told at that time, if memory serves, to keep this white garment clean (in other words, keep myself pure), which reminds of Rev. 3:4:

“4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis, which have not defiled their garments: and they shall walk with me in white, because they are worthy.”

So I see the white robes as symbolic, which many things are in the Book of Revelation.

Continued…
 
Continued…
You see, your name is written in, by the angels, a book. And next to it, every sin you ever commited, knowingly or unknowingly. If you are a Christian, a believer, a repentant sinner, then your name is also written in the Book Of Life. The first Book is opened and your name is looked for. But, it is no longer there, because all is seen is the Blood of Jesus Christ. The sins are now buried in the Sea of Forgetfullness, never to be remembered no more. Then the Book Of Life is opened and your name is read aloud.

Obviously, there are and always will be , until Jesus purges the whole earth with fire and all is made new again. there will Christians in name only ( they shall be denied by Chrsit because He will never have known them). There will be people who have become so wicked that though they once accepted Christ, they committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and will end up finally in the lake of Fire. And there will be, in Heaven, those Christians who never earned any crowns , nor have any to show for their lives.

Our lives should be one of continuing examination of what we are doing, to be repentant of sins, so when we stand before Jesus, something will remain after that purging fire. And, most importantly, you do these things, not for yourself, you do them for the Glory of God.

But, we are human with all our human failures. We are sinful, selfish creatures, aren’t we? But, we cannot grasp the depth and height of the Love God has for us. Not just what endured for us. How easy He made it for us to enter into heaven. His Forgiveness. If only we accept it. That is the Narrow Road. One simply acceptance of forgiveness. Be it by your priest or in a private confession between you and God.

I don’t know why all this was changed into a place called purgatory, a place of punishment and torment for various durations which can be shortened by the prayers of others. I am in no way trying to discourage your belief that that is how it happens because in the end, we shall be purged…
Regarding Purgatory being referred to as a “place” and your reference to durations of time, these things are Theological opinions to my understanding (Theologoumenon), and we’re not sure how time and space work in the afterlife.

Regarding punishments, the following paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which come right after teaching on Indulgences, will be helpful:

"1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the ‘eternal punishment’ of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the ‘temporal punishment’ of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the ‘old man’ and to put on the 'new man.'85"

Source: scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1472

But enough about the Catholic position for now, I was just explaining a bit…

You may be interested to know that the Greek word which is often translated as “suffer loss”, in 1 Cor. 3:15, can also mean “punish”, and it does in other texts of the Bible.

And this belief on being able to help others who have died in God’s friendship after they have passed on (if they need it) is rooted in Jewish belief, as I showed earlier in this thread by citing 2 Maccabees and Josephus’ “Jewish Wars”.

I want to ask some questions next here, so I’ll quote the last bit of your response in my next post…

Continued…
 
…Yes, sin cannot enter into heaven. that is the reason for His Blood. But who and what you were, is who and what you will be when we stand before Him, all of our most inner being cleansed.

On this side of life, it sounds all so scary. But, when we shall cross over, I suspect, it will feel so wonderful, to be unburdened.

Truly, we are not so far apart. You accept that it is a separate place and it touches the soul with some torment. I accept it is in Heaven and it is representive items that are burned. But we both know, there will always be some cleaning up to do.
OK, I want to ask some questions here, and maybe we will see that we are not so far apart (like you said) 🙂

Maybe this will help:

Catholic Apologist Jimmy Akin has described Purgatory as our final rush of sanctification [obviously only for those, the great majority, whose sanctification was not completed before death]. I assume that you believe that there is a sanctification process in the salvation process.

If so, do you believe it is finished for most people before death? If not, when is it finished?

Perhaps this will better explain what you mean by “…there will always be some cleaning up to do…”

Thanks!
 
Well, do not worry about being cranky. I have had my moments, quite a few as I recall:blush:

I am so poor at remembered which verse said what. My mind remembers the bible as putting everything together as in a story but I will try:

2 Cor 5:10 does refer to the things done in the body, but again it is the things that is judged for rewards. Salvation is already been had. You receive your rewards .It is all about those crowns,which shall be tossed before the King of kings.

1 Cor 3:11-15 described the fire purification( I said paper, which is an error, it should have said stubble). The items are not sins.

There is no punishment by pain of fire for those whose names are Written in the Book of Life . before He gave up His Spirit, He told the thief on the other cross that He would see Him in paradise “today”; the paradise where Abraham was. “It is finished” is a declaration that there shall be no more need of punishment for those who believe unto Him.

Also, a lot of what is in the book of Revelation gives more insight as to why it is about rewards. Our “treasure” stored up in heaven. All these wonderful beautiful treasures so that we can give Him praise and glory.

Judgements: personal are the judgement Seat of Christ in heaven for believers. There is the Great White Throne judgement for those dragged out of hell, satan, fallen angels, demons, anti-Christ, and false prophet. There is the judgement of the nations which takes place after the war at megeddo and every knee shall bow. Satan will finally be forced to declare “Jesus is Lord”. nations will be judged on how they treated His people Israel.

So it is really a matter of ‘is it punishment by fire’ or 'purification of your life results". Both take away the unpure leftovers.

We all shall be judged. This is a given.

The nations shall be judged. That is clear. I say it is about Israel.By what is in the Book of revelation.
 
It
BarryI,

I mean, can you provide the link to where you pulled that quote from please? I don’t see it online, just the quote you gave from some not so stellar websites at first glance. It would be nice to see the context.

You do realize that the New Catholic Encyclopedia is just one Catholic source, and even then I am not able to see the whole work quoted from there. I have given you others as I have shown (“Catholic Encylopedia”, Dr. Ott, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, various Early Church Fathers.) This is not exhaustive either.

Far from what you are thinking, I was a Protestant for about 10 years or so before becoming Catholic about 4 years ago. It was the fact that the early Church was Catholic, which is why I converted (and of course, the prompting of the Holy Spirit.)

Sorry, but your assertion that Purgatory is a man made tradition is just that, your assertion; and it is an erroneous assertion. You and your interpretation of the Bible are not the arbiters of truth. One example of a doctrine taught (by some) but is merely a human tradition is the idea of “soul sleep” which you seem to have promoted in this thread.
It is not a link. It was taken right out of The New Catholic Encyclopedia, book form Book#11 page 1034. Furthermore, it is not “My” assertion that it is a tradition, but rather the truth be told as referenced from this book. Period. It was a tradition of the early Jews also. One thing here. I never alluded to anyone these were my thoughts. This is right from a book , not my assertion.(Edited) And yes, it is human tradition, not words from the mouth of Jesus.Once again, the wages of sin is death, and there is only one Judgement Day Jesus spoke of.
 
It

It is not a link. It was taken right out of The New Catholic Encyclopedia, book form Book#11 page 1034. Furthermore, it is not “My” assertion that it is a tradition, but rather the truth be told as referenced from this book. Period. It was a tradition of the early Jews also. One thing here. I never alluded to anyone these were my thoughts. This is right from a book , not my assertion.(Edited) And yes, it is human tradition, not words from the mouth of Jesus.Once again, the wages of sin is death, and there is only one Judgement Day Jesus spoke of.
BarryI,

I apologize if I understood you and for being uncharitable and cranky in my response or responses.

One thing I am trying to get from you is this: where did you take that quote from the “The New Catholic Encyclopedia” from? Where did you obtain it?

It would be nice to read the whole article to see the context. As I have said, I have given other Catholic sources which show that on can see Purgatory in Scripture (Dr. Ludwigg Ott, “Catholic Encyclopedia”, and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI), off the top of my head.

You and I disagree that Jesus’ words do not prove the existence of Purgatory. I have cited Sts. Cyprian, Augustine, as well as Tertullian to back up my assertion.

You and I also disagree that there is only one judgment, as I believe this belief to not be in harmony with Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition.
 
When I was a kid, the nuns taught purgatory was like hell, only not forever. Seems the story has changed in the last 60 years.
Is it possible that nuns try to explain things to children in a simple manner fitting for their understandiing?

I encounter a lot of people that have not had any religious education following their confirmation (in 6-12th grade). Never had any education as an adult. So all their understanding comes from when they knew very little about phylosophy, logic, sociology and they were probably not even familiar with the topics.
 
Is it possible that nuns try to explain things to children in a simple manner fitting for their understandiing?

I encounter a lot of people that have not had any religious education following their confirmation (in 6-12th grade). Never had any education as an adult. So all their understanding comes from when they knew very little about phylosophy, logic, sociology and they were probably not even familiar with the topics.
This is true.

As for me, in the last 25 years of my life I have done a lot of reading, listening, and sorting.
While I can 'see" why the catholic church has developed its official stands , in the end, I must stand by Scripture. Not sola Scripture, as there are resources that I have delved into over the years to help me get into some of the more deeper meanings the roots of words, jewish life, that sort of stuff. Nothing formal. That was never to be as life gets in the way of life sometimes:blush:

As for nuns- I think they wanted to scare the behoovies out of us. Back then, eat meat on Friday and die before confession, you go to hell for eternity. tell a lie and die you go to purgatory for thousands of years. It was mean to do that to kids.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top