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qui_est_ce
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Because someone was mean to you is not a good enough reason to refute what they taught. My nuns were really nice to me, btw
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Doxiemom
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It is a bit more complicated than that.Because someone was mean to you is not a good enough reason to refute what they taught. My nuns were really nice to me, btw
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qui_est_ce
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If you or anyone you loved was hurt by a religious, I’m very sorry. Clergy abuse is a source of great sorrow and shame for Catholics. It wounds my soul every time I hear of another abuse. The Devil is trying his hardest to wage war against the Church. But he will not succeed.
I will pray for you and yours.
God bless.
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Doxiemom
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qui_est_ce
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BarryI
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Once again it is The New Catholic Encyclopedia It is a set of books from A-Z. I looked it up at the reading room in St Catharines Catholic Church in NJ where they have the whole set. And I only reference what Jesus said as written by the disciples. Tertullian , Cyprian and Augustine did not walk with Him. So in essence isn’t it their assertion that it exists ? As for Judgement day, Jesus only spoke of one. So if it came from His mouth, then that is all I need.
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qui_est_ce
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You did not walk with Him either. How do you you know that the Bible you have is the “real” one? The one approved by God?
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BarryI
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I don’t. But it is the King James Divine Edition but pretty much all are same.
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qui_est_ce
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Who says the King James is it? What about all the Bibles before King James? What about people who don’t speak English? Jesus didn’t speak English. English wasn’t even around until centuries after His death.
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BarryI
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So what your saying is that no one painstakingly deciphered ancient Aramaic into Greek and Latin and then English? Welllll if that is the case, then the entire English speaking population of the world is confused. Am I right here?
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qui_est_ce
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No, I responded to your post stating that your King James version was “it.”
What about all the other Bibles which were painstakingly translated from the Hebrew, Aramaic, an Greek?
What make the King James more “reliable” than the Vulgate, the Douay-Rheims, the New American Bible, all of which were painstakingly translated by scholars from the original languages?
ETA Add Gutenberg and Martin Luther’s German translations.
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LionHeart777
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Thanks for telling me the source of your source, now that that makes sense.
I meant, Tertullian , Cyprian and Augustine made use of Jesus’ Words in the Gospels.
For example, regarding St. Matthew 12:32, article on “Purgatory” says:Catholic Encyclopedia’s
“There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): ‘And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.’ According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life ‘some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire.’ St. Augustine also argues ‘that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come’ (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.”
So, more ECF’s (and some later writers) than I remembered.
Regarding St. Matthew 5:26:
Tertulian wrote:
“’[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense…Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term ‘adversary’ to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord’s) injunction, while you are in the way with him, ‘to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as ‘the accuser of the brethren,’ or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?’ Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).”
Source: scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
St. Cyprian of Carthage:
“‘The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace * is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer.** It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord**’ (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).”
Source: catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory (emphasis mine)
Also, the article I linked to from the Catholic Encyclopedia cites 1 Corinthians 3:15 as proof for Purgatory and gives a number of the Fathers who interpreted it that way.*
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BarryI
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LionHeart777
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BarryI,
We’ve been over much of this already so I’m not interested in belaboring any more than I have the points I made throughout this thread.
Suffice it to say that my beliefs come from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Christ’s Church. I merely use those Fathers I quoted to justify my using those passages to prove Purgatory. Like I mentioned earlier, your eschatology, if I may offer a critique here, besides not withstanding the “3 legged stool” I offered above, leaves a big gap between death and the bodily resurrection of the dead and the General Judgment. If I understood your position correctly you believe the soul that once animated the body sleeps in the grave with it until the resurrection. Here, one may wonder what you would say about those who have been cremated, for surely you do not believe the soul is destroyed by cremation; nor if a body were to be consumed by animals, for example. And now, if I understand correctly, you seem to be denying a new Heaven and a new Earth.
It’s hard to debate these things against someone who holds to “Sola Scriptura” because at the end of the day, it becomes my interpretation vs. yours. When I support my position from the writings of the Fathers, you say it’s just their opinion. But yet if I pressed you you would not be able to prove to me using your very standard that the Books we are arguing over even belong in the New Testament Canon, or that more don’t belong there too.
As I said in another post, Jimmy Akin has referred to Purgatory as the final rush of sanctification [for those who need it.] It is a loving God who Sanctifies and purifies men so that they may be able to enter into Heaven. It is a loving God who chastens: “Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance.” (Rev. 3:19) (DRB
rg) And as much as God is a loving God, He is also a just God.As Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI writes, commenting in this section on 1 Corinthians 3:12-15:
“47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation ‘as through fire’. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.” (Spe Salvi)
Source: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html
(Emphasis mine, highlighting how justice and grace are held in tension in this passage, and in 1 Cor. 3:12-15)
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LordsPoint
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I also quote “So here we see that some sins are retained (NOT FORGIVEN).”
I think we all agree one cannot enter heaven still covered in sin. But the Good News is that Christ paid the price and we can have ALL of our sins removed.
1 John 1:7-9 “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
His brutal death on the cross was to shed his blood as a sacrifice for our benefit. If we confess our sins, in the name of Jesus Christ, they are ALL cleansed. Either that or his sacrifice was not sufficient for God. But I think it was.
As mentioned on this thread previously, Indulgences can shorten one’s time in Purgatory. This contradicts the purpose of Purgatory. If one does not have to complete the entire “purification process” and enter heaven with “residuals” remaining then it was not required in the first place.
When a baptized Christian repents and confesses his sins to God through his mediator Jesus Christ those sins are erased and he is cleansed as if they never occurred. That is the Good News brought to mankind by the Son of God.
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