Purgatory, again

[tealblue]

Col 1 24-29

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking 14 in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,
25
of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God,
26
the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones,
27
to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.
28
It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.
29
For this I labor and struggle, in accord with the exercise of his power working within me.

I don’t like to use the work lacking to describe what Christ did for us on the cross but that is how Paul describes it.Not because there is anything really lacking.Obviously Christ died on the cross for our sins.but there must be something else because we all know that not everyone is saved.Thats why Paul uses the term lacking.Purgatory will not work for a protestant who believes Christs suffering saves us from the responsablilty of our sin and not how Catholics believe in that Christ died actually to remove our sin therefore making it possible for salvation.

 

[scriabin]

The idea of spiritual punishment having an etermal and temporal aspect comes from Scripture and was subsequently developed over the centuries by church theologians into the terms ‘eternal’ and ‘temporal’ punishment.

Look how Paul writes to the Corinthians in his first letter to them: chap 1, verse 2----“to those sanctified in Christ Jesus…” Paul was addressing a Church of baptised, forgiven believers.

In chapter 5 verse 1 Paul talks of **one who has sinned *among these *post-baptismal Christians. **"…a man is living with his father’s wife." And in 2 Corinthians chapter 2 Paul says this same person (or another individual who has sinned) needs punishment: 2 Cor 2:6–“For such a one **punishment **by the majority is enough.”

Notice that Paul does **NOT **say, “don’t worry about your sin baptised, sanctified believer, you’re forgiven of all your sins, no punishment is necessary!” Paul says that for this post-baptismal sin —punishment by the majority (the Church) was just.

That’s where the idea got started. Post-baptismal sin has a punishment due that involves punishment meted out by the Church (or Church’s representative, Paul in this case, a priest in ours) and reconciliation with this self same Church…

But is eternal punishment due? No. 1 Corinthians 5:5—“deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

So **some kind of punishment (not eternal) is due to post-baptismal sin. **Punishment that is not eternal is temporal, hence the term temporal punishment.

If temporal punishment is justly due in this life for post-baptismal sin amongst believers, then if the sinning believer dies *before *this temporal punishment has been fulfilled in this life then he is not eternally punished but is justly punished after death.

 

[bengal_fan]

Col 1 24-29

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking 14 in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,
25
of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God,
26
the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones,
27
to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.
28
It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.
29
For this I labor and struggle, in accord with the exercise of his power working within me.

I don’t like to use the work lacking to describe what Christ did for us on the cross but that is how Paul describes it.Not because there is anything really lacking.Obviously Christ died on the cross for our sins.but there must be something else because we all know that not everyone is saved.Thats why Paul uses the term lacking.Purgatory will not work for a protestant who believes Christs suffering saves us from the responsablilty of our sin and not how Catholics believe in that Christ died actually to remove our sin therefore making it possible for salvation.

i already explained what paul was saying. you have to read the whole chapter not just take it out of context. in the verses that precede what you quote, paul talks about the sufficiency of Christ’s death. the “lacking” he speaks of is that Christ has left us work to do and paul is doing it and suffering for it.

i don’t say the responsibility of our sin is gone here on earth, but the eternal punishment is gone. Christ bore it. “and the Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all”.

i wish folks would read all the posts before responding as i am now repeating myself.

 

[bengal_fan]

The idea of spiritual punishment having an etermal and temporal aspect comes from Scripture and was subsequently developed over the centuries by church theologians into the terms ‘eternal’ and ‘temporal’ punishment.

Look how Paul writes to the Corinthians in his first letter to them: chap 1, verse 2----“to those sanctified in Christ Jesus…” Paul was addressing a Church of **baptised, forgiven **believers.

In chapter 5 verse 1 Paul talks of **one who has sinned *among these ***post-baptismal Christians. “…a man is living with his father’s wife.” And in 2 Corinthians chapter 2 Paul says this same person (or another individual who has sinned) needs punishment: 2 Cor 2:6–“For such a one **punishment **by the majority is enough.”

Notice that Paul does **NOT **say, “don’t worry about your sin baptised, sanctified believer, you’re forgiven of all your sins, no punishment is necessary!” Paul says that for this post-baptismal sin —punishment by the majority (the Church) was just.

That’s where the idea got started. Post-baptismal sin has a punishment due that involves punishment meted out by the Church (or Church’s representative, Paul in this case, a priest in ours) and reconciliation with this self same Church…

But is eternal punishment due? No. 1 Corinthians 5:5—“deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

So **some kind of punishment (not eternal) is due to post-baptismal sin. **Punishment that is not eternal is temporal, hence the term temporal punishment.

If temporal punishment is justly due in this life for post-baptismal sin amongst believers, then if the sinning believer dies *before *this temporal punishment has been fulfilled in this life then he is not eternally punished but is justly punished after death.

again, all of the passages you quote speak about consequences here on earth. none of them deal with what happens after we die. this “punishment” has to do with reconciling ourselves to our brothers and sisters in Christ. not to God. we have been reconciled to God through His Son. nowhere that i have seen does it say God will punish us if we die with unconfessed and unpunished sins. the only things that are said involve a cleansing and purifying… not punishing. the penance has to do with reconciling our actions with ourselves and those we caused pain to.

in the examples you cite, these people have caused scandal to the other believers. these believers need to be sure they can trust each other because it is life and death. so, if some one broke that trust, they had to earn it back. God, however, can judge our hearts and knows if there is true repentence.

i do believe we can live outside our salvation and thus be separated from God eternally (hence, i don’t ascribe to once saved always saved). but with repentence comes absolute forgiveness and any punishment from God. the punishment you speak of comes from humans.

 

[With_Love]

thanks for the link. i listened to the last 10 minutes (and you lied, he doesn’t talk about purgatory until the last 7 i think…lol… that’s a few years in purgatory for you! ).

i humbly disagree with his interpretation of some of the passages.

first: the david story: he is suggesting that God not only would punish us for our sins but He also punishes others (the child). that is not consistent with the character of God. the point is not that there is a punishment for sin even after forgiveness, it is that here (in this broken world) our sins can still cause bad things to happen. God simply does not stop the chain reaction our sins start.

second: the story of the servant and the master. the servant owes an enormous debt and the master forgives him of it. the servant then goes out and sees some one who owes him a small amount of money and he demands repayment (and even has the man arrested). the master hears about this and summons the servant to himself. he then has the servant thrown into jail until he pays the debt in full. this passage is not about purgatory but about the ability to lose one’s salvation. the point is that the servant could never repay his debt so the master forgave it, but because the servant did not extend the same forgiveness to another, the master put the debt back onto the servant. by being thrown in jail, he basically ensures that the servant will never repay this insurmountable debt (for how can he make the money to pay the debt if he is in prison?). the only way this servant could get out of prison would be to throw himself on the mercy of the master… not by enduring some punishment for he could never endure enough because of the sheer size of the debt owed.

lastly: the verses about love covering a multitude of sins. these refer to here on earth. that we can overcome many of the effects of sin by turning to love. if i say something hurtful to my wife… by showing love to her, i can begin to defray the effects of my hurtful words. whenever we sin, if we turn to love (which is really repenting) the effect of our sins can be minimized or completely covered. it is not referring to some “spiritual bank” (i don’t hold to indulgences either as you can tell), but to our ability to effect what results from our sins in the lives of others.

by looking at these stories in this way, i think it is still clear that Jesus’ death was THE punishment for sins. we still have the stain of sin (not individual sins) and the brokenness of this world upon us and we must be cleansed of that. it is not a punishment.

Thank you Bengal_fan,

I agree with you on the first point, that the "chain reaction of sin’ continues after we are forgiven. That is the temporal consequences of sin that John talked about. So is there a difference between having our sins forgiven by God and our soul being restored from the effects of sin by God. I’d say yes. And I’d say that the restorative and healing process can occur in this life, however, it must have occurred completely before we can partake in the beatific vision of God. That is the wonderful mercy of God healing us from the harmful effects of sin, in this life or in the next(i.e. Purgatory).

The second point, I also agree that the unforgiving servant parable means speaks about the possibility of losing one’s salvation. I don’t totally agree with all of John’s interpretations, but I would offer the following scripture about the unforgiving servant in jail. Don’t know if it is applicable:
1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison.

The Third point, I agree with you that love certainly conquers and makes up for the effects of sin. However, those scriptures (1 peter 4:8, james 5:19-20, etc.) says that love or admonishing a sinner can cover a multitude of sins, not cover the effects of a multitude of sins. It is a wonderful privilege to cooperate with God’s saving grace for the redemption of others. Let me ask, as you stated above–“whenever we sin, if we turn to love (which is really repenting) the effect of our sins can be minimized or completely covered.” What happens if the effects of some addiction to sin were anger, shame, and bitterness. As you just stated, love helps to restore the effects of sin( anger, shame, and bitterness) to a minimum. Can a soul even with a minimal amount of anger, bitterness, or shame be in the presence of All Holy God? Purgatory is God’s way of Making the souls of Just Men Perfect.

Finally, purgatory isn’t a punishment as much as it is the merits of Christ’s death on the cross purifying a soul before meeting God. God is the Refiners Fire. Christ’s death is so complete and so empowering that we, as co-heirs with Christ, can in a limited and finite ways cooperate with the infinite and perfect merits of Christ.

Too me, purgatory is the washing of one’s dirty feet (scared but saved soul) by Jesus prior to entering heaven. Our prayers and acts of Charity and Mercy do, in some mysterious way, help these souls.

 

[VociMike]

that’s a better analogy i think. it’s not about punishment, it’s about cleansing and restoration. it might hurt, but it is not a punishment.

I’m with you on that all the way. Every “painful” thing God imposes on us is for our own sanctification, perfection and ultimate salvation. He is all about pulling us out of the mire and into that state for which we were created.

 

[BOBKAT]

Christ’s death not only freed us of the bonage of sin it opened the gates of heaven. Remember nothing unclean can enter into heaven so purification needs to take place. All scars need to be removed. His death has a two fold meaning the forgivness of sins and the opening of heaven. Again all is of course our willingness to accept His grace. So that sins can be forgiven can being the word, we still need to repent and take justice on the chin which is purification. As much as we want to just be sorry we know very well that that sometimes it really isn’t enough, justice itself will have to be served. Remember He is not only the God of Love He is the God of justice. Praise be to God…

God Bless
Kathleen

 

[bengal_fan]

we still need to repent and take justice on the chin which is purification

i agree with just about everything the past couple of posters said. i have never denied the existence of purgatory, nor have i denied the painful process that will take place there. i simply deny that it is punishment or any type of payment (on our part) for sin. i do disagree with the statement above in that justice has already taken place with Jesus’ death. justice and purification are not the same.

God desires for us to be made holy. He is the only one who can accomplish this. we are no longer under the threat of punishment, but mercy. purgatory is an act of love from God, not vengeance or punishment. He wants us to be with Him so bad that He is the one who will be cleaning us. amazing love!

 

[VociMike]

…purgatory is an act of love from God, not vengeance or punishment. He wants us to be with Him so bad that He is the one who will be cleaning us. amazing love!

Yes, yes, yes! I like to call it God’s final mercy.