Purgatory and 1 Cor. 3

[Koineman]

Would you like me to show you that the exposure and hurt which sins does to others will have a punishing effect on the one who caused it from the same Apostle you are teaching from?

No, not for the purpose of this thread. The purpose here is to follow Paul’s train of thought in this passage alone, to see what his intention was: Is he describing purification of the soul, as the CCC describes Purgatory, or merely the loss of a reward, or punishment?

When God’s perfect presence and all perceiving eye exposes all of our weaknesses, there will be no where to turn and hide. There will be no covering up what we participated and allowed to infect our soul.

That’s revealing and exposing, not punishing.

Consider this use of ‘punishment’ used by Paul to the same men he gave a glimpse of God’s purging, but in the Church’s body sense:

2 Corinthians 2 (RSVCE)

5 “But if any one has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to you all. 6 For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough; 7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10 Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11 to keep Satan from gaining the advantage over us; for we are not ignorant of his designs.”

Yes, but notice how he actually specifies “punishment” in that text. Why? Because he meant “punishment.” It is that very question that we need to focus on in the 1 Cor. 3 text. Does he describe a future remedial punishment? We’ll see.

 

[rcwitness]

No, not for the purpose of this thread. The purpose here is to follow Paul’s train of thought in this passage alone, to see what his intention was: Is he describing purification of the soul, as the CCC describes Purgatory, or merely the loss of a reward, or punishment?

I will continue with your assesment/interpretation of this passage. If you wish to do it in a vacuum, its a little counter productive. Neither does Paul wish to explicitly form a doctrine of the particular aspect of our Judgment. He is touching on Purgatory for sure, but not going into more detail than what is needed in the context. This passage is not a proof that the process of purgatory exists, yet a Teaching that touches on the purging of God’s judgment on our lives, hearts, and deeds.

That’s revealing and exposing, not punishing.

To the believer who accepts Jesus, they are synonymous! it is an agonizing pain which cuts very deep.

Yes, but notice how he actually specifies “punishment” in that text. Why? Because he meant “punishment.” It is that very question that we need to focus on in the 1 Cor. 3 text. Does he describe a future remedial punishment? We’ll see.

It is not the pain which cures, but the exposure and extraction which causes pain and hurt. How do you suppose the Corinthian Church ‘punished’ him? Apparently Paul recognizes it as “enough” for the purpose of bringing the believer to sorrow. This is the end goal of purgatory, to purge away faults to reveal a pure heart which has felt remorse and thus healed and filled with Christ.

 

[Koineman]

I will continue with your assesment/interpretation of this passage. If you wish to do it in a vacuum, its a little counter productive.

Uh uh uh…now don’t read in to what I said. Did I say we would not ever consult other texts? Note what I said in another recent post (perhaps you haven’t seen it yet?):

Bringing in other Scriptures is okay and even needful at some point, but I think that should be done only after the primary question in this thread is answered.

Neither does Paul wish to explicitly form a doctrine of the particular aspect of our Judgment. He is touching on Purgatory for sure, but not going into more detail than what is needed in the context. This passage is not a proof that the process of purgatory exists, yet a Teaching that touches on the purging of God’s judgment on our lives, hearts, and deeds.

That remains to be seen. I’m sure you’ll agree that it’s completely sensible to expect that, if Paul intended to mean punishment or purification, he would have said so, either with those words or with descriptions that allude to those words. Otherwise, this passage is not about purgatory. It can’t be in that case, since then he’s not describing Purgatory!

That’s revealing and exposing, not punishing.

To the believer who accepts Jesus, they are very similar! it is an agonizing pain which cuts very deep.

They’re not similar. Are you serious? Come on, let’s not use different terms interchangeably. If we start doing that, we can make a text say just about anything.

It is not the pain which cures, but the exposure which causes pain and hurt.

Maybe so, but we shall see if Paul is referring to any exposure causing pain here at all–pain happening to the actual person whose works are being judged.

 

[Koineman]

It is not the pain which cures, but the exposure and extraction which causes pain and hurt. How do you suppose the Corinthian Church ‘punished’ him? Apparently Paul recognizes it as “enough” for the purpose of bringing the believer to sorrow. This is the end goal of purgatory, to purge away faults to reveal a pure heart which has felt remorse and thus healed and filled with Christ.

Is that what the CCC says will happen in Purgatory?

 

[rcwitness]

Is that what the CCC says will happen in Purgatory?

The Catechism does not describe Purgatory much. It is rather vague and limited regarding the event. What I have said about it is my understanding of it and in my own words, yet drawing from Scriptures several passages which address it.

It is said that there are only three things the Church has officially Taught regarding Purgatory which is described as a final purification of the elect who undergo this to achieve the holiness to enter the joy of heaven.

*All who go through purgatory are assured they are going towards heaven

*There is some ‘sort’ of pain involved

*Prayers for those in purgatory are efficatious

The principal Scripture reference regarding purgatory mentioned in the Catechism is

Matthew 12:32 (RSVCE)

32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

So in this context, the principal purpose for purgatory is forgiveness. This is completely in line with my comment that the end goal is to achieve remorse for faults and reveal a pure heart able to be completely filled with Christ.

 

[Koineman]

The Catechism does not describe Purgatory much. It is rather vague and limited regarding the event. What I have said about it is my understanding of it and in my own words, yet drawing from Scriptures several passages which address it.

I hope you don’t mind, but I am going to use the CCC as the official Catholic definition and not what individual Catholics say. Just for reference, I quoted that definition earlier in this thread.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

For the benefit of clarity:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

References:

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5G 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

 

[Reuben_J]

that if I am not perfectly purified of sinful tendencies or vices in this life, I must undergo purification. The key part of the CCC’s definition for me is where it says that the people themselves will undergo purification.

":

Is it your thinking that purification at the moment of death is opposed to a lutheran teaching?

I’m not sure. I don’t know of any Lutheran teaching that would go against that notion, assuming you mean an instantaneous purification and not the idea of being punished for your impurities over a period of time.

So purification at the moment of death is not opposed to a Lutheran teaching.

Just wondering, why the preference for instantaneous purification? Why not for a period of time or it is the Lord who decides the duration or we just do not know the duration, it can be instantaneous or for a period of time; we just do not know?

Thanks,

Reuben

 

[rcwitness]

Just wondering, why the preference for instantaneous purification? Why not for a period of time or it is the Lord who decides the duration or we just do not know the duration, it can be instantaneous or for a period of time; we just do not know?

Thanks,

Reuben

Right. The Catholic interpretation is less limiting and more understanding of the essense of the event. It is not a mere forgiveness without the sinner’s recognition, remorse and conversion of heart. There is the pain of wrongdoing, of causing damage to the Lord and our brothers and sisters. There is the pain of loss. Yet, this was apparently not dealt with through faith and cooperation during the earthly life for a reason. The heardness of heart and/or love for pleasures of this world.

The fact that Jesus is the reason why the Father is able to forgive us, does not make remorse and conversion instantaneous. Instantaneous is more related to time, where conviction, bitter remorse and healing may be a duration of sorts relavent to our faults.

The understanding of ‘punishment’ is vital in understanding Purgatory. The punishment undergone by a Christian for wrongdoing is drastically different than the punishment of the Father towards mortal sin. I consider Peter’s moment of bitter agony after the cock crowed. Did Christ’s forgiveness make it painless? Was the pain punishment? The pain was naturally what comes to the heart who loves Jesus and yet sinned against Him.

 

[Koineman]

Continuing with the passage:

12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—

Paul continues talking about the labor done on the foundation. Whether he means the foundation he laid down or the foundation that is Christ is not clear, but that matters little for our purpose. What’s important is that he is speaking about the labor that is done, just after he got done warning “Let each man take care how he builds upon it.” Here in v. 12, he seems to be explaining why it is so important to take care how one builds on it–because the labor can be of various qualities, from nothing to low to high. This seems pretty clear from his words “gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble.” Some of these items are more impervious to heat and fire than others, and some are not impervious at all and will be consumed completely by fire, such as hay and stubble.

13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.

Everyone’s work on the foundation will be exposed for what it really is at this time of judgment. How will it be exposed? Paul says, “it will be revealed with fire.” He further goes on to say that the fire will test the works everyone has done. What is plain and clear from this is that the fire and heat are applied to the works themselves, for the purpose of revealing their true quality and testing them. A work is revealed for what it truly was/is by how well it withstands the testing fire.

It’s important to note here two things: 1) the works that are being tested are the labors that each person has done on the building itself, i.e., the church, and 2) this is a judgment of believers. Point 2 is captured by the CCC at least in the sense that this is distinguished from what happens to unbelievers in hell.

 

[rcwitness]

Continuing with the passage:
Paul continues talking about the labor done on the foundation. Whether he means the foundation he laid down or the foundation that is Christ is not clear, but that matters little for our purpose. What’s important is that he is speaking about the labor that is done, just after he got done warning “Let each man take care how he builds upon it.” Here in v. 12, he seems to be explaining why it is so important to take care how one builds on it–because the labor can be of various qualities, from nothing to low to high. This seems pretty clear from his words “gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble.” Some of these items are more impervious to heat and fire than others, and some are not impervious at all and will be consumed completely by fire, such as hay and stubble.

Everyone’s work on the foundation will be exposed for what it really is at this time of judgment. How will it be exposed? Paul says, “it will be revealed with fire.” He further goes on to say that the fire will test the works everyone has done. What is plain and clear from this is that the fire and heat are applied to the works themselves, for the purpose of revealing their true quality and testing them. A work is revealed for what it truly was/is by how well it withstands the testing fire.

It’s important to note here two things: 1) the works that are being tested are the labors that each person has done on the building itself, i.e., the church, and 2) this is a judgment of believers. Point 2 is captured by the CCC at least in the sense that this is distinguished from what happens to unbelievers in hell.

I dont see anything in contradiction to what The Church has Taught and labeled Purgatory in your comments.

I feel that your focus seems to be somewhere in a distinction you make with the works as seperate from the person. This is true in the sense that the purpose of the fire is to ‘seperate’ the unworthy works from the Christian. My understanding is that this process is not pleasant because the works have come from the heart of the individual, and specifically things that the believer has not rejected but allowed to affect their lives and the life of the Church around them. So its not so simple as considering these works as just something distinct from the person, but attatched even in the heart of the Christian, or at best, not fully repented and made penance for.

 

[Koineman]

I dont see anything in contradiction to what The Church has Taught and labeled Purgatory in your comments.

I feel that your focus seems to be somewhere in a distinction you make with the works as seperate from the person.

I am simply focusing on what the passage focuses on. The works are being tested and revealed for what they are. Thus far, that’s it. What this process does TO the believer himself is not in view in this passage, or at least not yet.

 

[Reuben_J]

"Koineman:

What is plain and clear from this is that the fire and heat are applied to the works themselves

but attatched even in the heart of the Christian, or at best, not fully repented and made penance for.

= purgatory:thumbsup:

 

[rcwitness]

For the benefit of clarity:

References:

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5G 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

Thanks Jose

 

[Koineman]

Originally Posted by Koineman
What is plain and clear from this is that the fire and heat are applied to the works themselves

Not in this passage, at least not yet. Nothing has been said in this passage yet about the works being attached in the heart of the Christian–whatever that even means. Nothing has been said yet about anything painful happening TO the believer.

Also, the views of both of you are not expressed in the CCC’s section on Purgatory. As someone else (maybe it was RCwitness) pointed out, the CCC does not go into detail about Purgatory. Nevertheless, that’s what we have to go by for the Catholic view.

 

[rcwitness]

Not in this passage, at least not yet. Nothing has been said in this passage yet about the works being attached in the heart of the Christian–whatever that even means. Nothing has been said yet about anything painful happening TO the believer.

I am unnable to discern this passage without the knowledge of the rest of Scripture, the Holy Spirit, and Church Teaching. I am fine with you laying out your interpretation of Paul’s section of Scripture. But you insist on me putting asside everything else that is fundamental to the Faith. Namely the nature of sinfull deeds and how we are forgiven them. Yes, I believe sinfull deeds are not something seperate from our hearts, yet come from them. They come from them because we are tempted by pleasures and lies from below and have accepted them and put them into practice. The way that we are forgiven of sin is first conversion of heart by the conviction of our conscience (by the grace of God and His instruments) to know that we have caused evil through our own fault, then to willfully surrender it to Christ in Confession and to do relative penance in as much as we are able to participate in restoring what was damaged. None of this can be ignored regarding forgiveness in the next world, yet the nature of conviction, conversion and penance cannot be the same since we are no longer able to participate in the means of this life. This is why Paul expresses in terms that we know in this world (such as stone, wood, stuble, fire) in order to convey or paint a picture of the process of God’s purification and testing of our lives. He is not concerned about what has been repented and turned away from, but what still remains attatched in our hearts. If it was not still attatched to our hearts, then we would have had proper remorse, confession, penance and forgiveness thus restoring (think of fixing a wall, or roof in a building to apply it to Paul’s analogy) what was wrong.

Also, the views of both of you are not expressed in the CCC’s section on Purgatory. As someone else (maybe it was RCwitness) pointed out, the CCC does not go into detail about Purgatory. Nevertheless, that’s what we have to go by for the Catholic view.

I have used more detail and articulation (which I certainly dont claim to be infallible about) yet do not believe that I have expressed anything which would contradict Church Teaching.

 

[CarmelJerome]

I am simply focusing on what the passage focuses on. The works are being tested and revealed for what they are. Thus far, that’s it. What this process does TO the believer himself is not in view in this passage, or at least not yet.

Why would the quality of the works have an effect on the condition of the worker? The insufficiency of the works is exposed, but this has.no effect on the worker's salvation, but something like passing through a fire himself will occur -so the works and their testing directly affect the soul. As always Paul isn't absolutely in control of his imagery, and he slides from talking about the ministerial work of himself, Apollos, and his fellow workers to the work of those not in that capacity, who are nonetheless building up the Church and at the same time, being fitted into the rest of the Church. This is one of those passages which shows Paul's opacity: he's started.one hare, scared up another, sees that they're linked but because of the complexity isn't able to parse it out wholly. 
The note in the NAB is in agreement with you that the verse is used to support Purgatory but the text itself doesn't envisage it; the Catechism though asserts that the support is there.

 

[Koineman]

I am unnable to discern this passage without the knowledge of the rest of Scripture, the Holy Spirit, and Church Teaching.

And again, I am not saying we can’t bring in other texts to gain insight into this–provided those texts clearly speak about the judgment of believers, since that is what Paul is talking about here. However, my primary point in this thread is to nail down what Paul was actually writing to the Corinthians–in other words, what his first-century Corinthian audience would have understood him to be saying. That’s an important first step in understanding any biblical text.

I am fine with you laying out your interpretation of Paul’s section of Scripture. But you insist on me putting asside everything else that is fundamental to the Faith. Namely the nature of sinfull deeds and how we are forgiven them.

I’m trying to keep you from eisegesis. Just the very fact that you are trying to import ideas of sinful deeds into this passage shows me you are already starting to do that.

Yes, I believe sinfull deeds are not something seperate from our hearts, yet come from them.

I agree with that. But the problem is, again, that so far there is no evidence that Paul has that in mind here. He is not addressing any sin or vices of the Corinthians in this passage. He is referring to the manner in which people build on the foundation.

This is why Paul expresses in terms that we know in this world (such as stone, wood, stuble, fire) in order to convey or paint a picture of the process of God’s purification and testing of our lives.

But isn’t this really just reading ideas of Purgatory into the text? So far, Paul has said nothing about people being purified. In fact, the idea of purification of ***anything ***has not been mentioned. He has described the testing of our works–period.

He is not concerned about what has been repented and turned away from, but what still remains attatched in our hearts.

Ummm…no. Read the text. He says absolutely nothing about this.

Also, the views of both of you are not expressed in the CCC’s section on Purgatory. As someone else (maybe it was RCwitness) pointed out, the CCC does not go into detail about Purgatory. Nevertheless, that’s what we have to go by for the Catholic view.

I have used more detail and articulation (which I certainly dont claim to be infallible about) yet do not believe that I have expressed anything which would contradict Church Teaching.

I’m not worried about whether you’ve contradicted church teaching in general, but whether your views line up with official Catholic teaching on Purgatory. I’ve already made the mistake in the past of taking a Catholic layperson’s word about what the RCC allegedly teaches, only to have that understanding corrected or disagreed with by another Catholic. I have learned that listening to Roman Catholics’ interpretations of what their church teaches is a lot like listening to Protestants’ interpretations of the Bible: a lot of variance. Thus, I’m sticking with what the CCC says about Purgatory.

 

[rcwitness]

But isn’t this really just reading ideas of Purgatory into the text? So far, Paul has said nothing about people being purified. In fact, the idea of purification of ***anything ***has not been mentioned. He has described the testing of our works–period.

Ok, I think I need to allow you to finish your examination of the passage, because I am already basing my view of the latter part on the whole passage. If you are waiting for the terms ‘purification’ and ‘purgatory’ to show up in order to prove that’s what Paul is Teaching, then you’ve made your point and can assume that’s not what he’s talking about.

If you want to understand the nature of fire burning away useless material to reveal what is strong and pure, then you have understood Paul is talking about purification and purging. As for your insistant desire to find Paul applying the purging fire to the person, well continue your examination of the remaining texts.

I’m not worried about whether you’ve contradicted church teaching in general, but whether your views line up with official Catholic teaching on Purgatory.

Ok, so you’ve had a change of direction from your OP question? What do you conclude regarding your initial question - “Does 1 Corinthians 3 prove Purgatory?”

I’ve already made the mistake in the past of taking a Catholic layperson’s word about what the RCC allegedly teaches, only to have that understanding corrected or disagreed with by another Catholic. I have learned that listening to Roman Catholics’ interpretations of what their church teaches is a lot like listening to Protestants’ interpretations of the Bible: a lot of variance. Thus, I’m sticking with what the CCC says about Purgatory.

Fair enough. So join the club which is always trying to nail down a correct understanding of orthodox Catholic faith regarding the many different issues of the Deposit of Faith! I dont claim to have an infallible knowledge of the mysteries of Purgatory. Neither has the Church (other than giving a name to what Paul is talking about and a few certain things regarding it, which I posted in #45). I do try to form a solid understanding of it though, since it is a source of contention with many non-Catholic Christians. I usually do try to stay reserved about throwing too much of my personal understanding of Purgatory, and I can definitely take some constructive criticism from you and others who can correct something that I’ve shared which is straying too far outside of what we can gather from the Faith.

I think its best for me to wait for you to finish your examination of the passage, share what you agree with, regarding the Catholic Faith, what you feel I have strayed from the Catholic Faith, and then also bring in some other passages that deal with the Judgement of Christians and how it relates to the Churches Teaching about Purgatory and my own personal understanding of it.

Also, I hope to see more members join in, because I dont want to misrepresent the Catholic Faith to you. I respect your struggle with that aspect of fellowshipping with Catholics.

Like Paul says, “Let each one take care how he builds upon it.”

If this is your point to me, it is taken.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Not in this passage, at least not yet. Nothing has been said in this passage yet about the works being attached in the heart of the Christian–whatever that even means. Nothing has been said yet about anything painful happening TO the believer.

Also, the views of both of you are not expressed in the CCC’s section on Purgatory. As someone else (maybe it was RCwitness) pointed out, the CCC does not go into detail about Purgatory. Nevertheless, that’s what we have to go by for the Catholic view.

At the very least, there is not a single passage that presents a conclusive negative as it does for faith alone . Which by its very nature demonstrates the need for an interpretative authority - in like manner as the one demonstrated in Matt 28’s great commission.

And also keeping in mind that when you read all the references in the CCC, it is obvious that this is not a single passage theology proposal.