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Denise1957
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If I recall correctly, you’re the one who brought Hyppolytus into the discussion. I don’t think that Catholics here mentioned him at all.Why focus mostly on his writings?
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Telstar
Guest
When he says that, he’s describing the place that the righteous are led to after they pass through the ‘guard-house’. But, there is nothing in the section where he describes the punishments that would indicate that they are exempt from them at that point.
This ‘guard-house’ is said to be a separate place under the earth (why would they go to a place under the earth if the righteous are just going to heaven, or the place of the light as it’s described here?), and it says, “And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, a lake of unquenchable fire…”. This is a clear description of Hell, which is also said to be “under the earth”, that he says is attached to the guard-house (perhaps because they are both places of punishment?). It also clearly says that the angels distribute “temporary punishments” to the souls who are there. There is no distinction made by him as to whether they are the souls of either the righteous, or the unrighteous. It sounds like the punishments are metered out to all, according to their deeds. The whole place is described as being in darkness, where the light of the sun “does not shine”. Why would the righteous even be led through this place of darkness on the way to heaven?
After describing the place, he goes on to say that the unrighteous are destined to go to “this place” (as he described hell, attached to the guard-house) but the righteous are destined to go to the place of light, which he calls the Bosom of Abraham. Yet, both of them pass through this place of temporary punishment, first. Why would that be? It makes no sense except in the concept of Purgatory. He describes the final destinations of all to either be Heaven or Hell, but this guard-house is separate from both of them, and exists somewhere between them in their journey.
We have to remember that this is very early in the Church, and these things weren’t even understood as well as we understand them, now, and it’s certainly obvious that we still struggle with trying to understand them. But, even then, they do have a sense of a place where even the righteous are temporarily punished, before they move on to their heavenly reward.
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Koineman
Guest
Focus “mostly” on his writings? Where did you get that idea from? I posted one quote from him.
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Denise1957
Guest
Sorry, my mistake. You only made two posts referring to or discussing Hyppolytus. I thought it was more.
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Koineman
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Koineman
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Okay, no problem.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Why would they be unanimous? This is a clear example of exception theology. Find one ECF that disagrees with something in order to not accept it…
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Telstar
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Koineman
Guest
You’re still missing the point and not reading carefully. There is no “part of it” that is called the “guard-house.” The entire place is called the guard-house. You are trying to make it seem like the guard-house is a separate place within Hades where punishments are given to the righteous, but it’s not a separate place. Here is the text yet again:
“But now we must speak of Hades, in which the souls both of the righteous and the unrighteous are detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there. This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls,”
Contrary to what you claim, the guard-house is not a “part of” Hades; it is a synonym for the entire locality known as Hades.
That was in the beginning and was just a general description of the entire locality and what the angels do. At that point in the text, he has not yet begun his description of the actual events–leading through the gate, separating, going to separate destinations, and so on.
Yes, I know, but it doesn’t apply here. The only temporary punishments are for the wicked. He describes their punishments near the end of the excerpt.
No. What you’re doing is reading an idea into the text that is not there. Yes, everyone there is kept in custody and detained, but that statement of being in custody does not describe any punishments for the righteous. It doesn’t even imply it. The temporary punishments are clearly said to be for the wicked, when he specifies later what the wicked go through as they wait for their final judgment. In other words, the phrase “temporary punishments” has to be understood in the context and not isolated from the rest of the text.
Further, the writer is absolutely silent about punishments for the righteous. What I said earlier is completely reasonable: If Hippolytus intended to describe this place as Purgatory, he would have surely described the punishments of the righteous, or at least stated the fact that they are punished while they are waiting for their final destination. He says nothing of the sort, though. He neither says they are punished nor describes any punishment for them; he simply says they go through the gate, are separated from the wicked, and go on to a “locality full of light” in which there is no suffering at all.
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Koineman
Guest
The point is that texts are chosen that support a particular theology, while the others that contradict it are ignored.Why would they be unanimous? This is a clear example of exception theology. Find one ECF that disagrees with something in order to not accept it…
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Koineman
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Telstar
Guest
I think we have a problem with the terminology used by him, as well as how he describes the procession of souls through it. I think he does call Hades the guard-house, but he also states that there (in Hades) is a place that is set apart, where he says the ‘unquenchable fire’ is, and he believes no souls have been sent there, yet. So, is it cordoned off as a part of Hades, or is it a different place altogether? What about the “Bosom of Abraham”? Is that also a different place, entirely, or is it considered a part of what he calls Hades? If this entire dissertation is only speaking of Hades (often called the ‘place of the dead’) as being all one place, then wouldn’t you think there are different parts to it by what he says about them?
So, if that’s true, then are we to believe that the souls of the unrighteous are only temporarily punished? Why would he say that? Aren’t they supposed to be punished for all eternity? IMHO, eternal punishment is far different than “temporary” punishment. Their punishment will never end, so it’s certainly not ‘temporary’, is it?
But, he very clearly says that the righteous are “detained” there. Detention implies at least some kind of punishment (ask any high school kid), even if it’s not like a ‘physical’ (spiritual) fire, but only a temporary delay that keeps souls from getting to their ultimate destination, it will be painful for them to have to wait. This ‘delay’ would certainly be very emotionally painful for someone that knows that his final destination is the bliss of Heaven, to be with God, and, all of His angels and saints. Just like when people are traveling to a far off city to visit loved ones hate to find out that their flight has been ‘delayed’, because it causes them anxiety and emotional distress to be separated from them for even a little longer than they thought it would be. They don’t want to wait any longer, they want to be there, now!
That’s why his use of the word “detained” is so significant when he’s describing the righteous souls in Hades. They are being delayed in their course of travel from there to their final destination. That’s what Catholics believe is the most painful part of the sufferings of Purgatory, that they are ‘delayed’ from entering Heaven. It’s bad enough when we’re separated from family members for a short time here on earth, but when we’re separated from God, even for a very short time after death, it will be even more excruciatingly painful. Our souls want to be with God because we come from God. After we die, we’ll feel that yearning to be with Him in an even stronger way than we do, now. It will be a burning desire that will only end when we are with Him. So, there are different ways for souls to suffer in Purgatory than what we might imagine. Our separation from God, even for a short while, will probably be the most painful of all.
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Koineman
Guest
According to Hippolytus, yes, since their current place in Hades, like that of the righteous, is only temporary.
You’re reading too much into this. They are only detained in the sense that they are kept there until they are taken to their final abode. The way Hippolytus clearly describes it, they undergo no suffering whatsoever while they are being detained. He actually says that!
I’m sorry, but nobody can read this text and walk away from it thinking, “Wow, that’s Purgatory!” unless one had previously made up his mind to see Purgatory in it. If someone who has never heard of Purgatory and knows nothing about it were given this text to read, he or she would not see any idea of purification of righteous souls there.
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jlhargus
Guest
- And this is the passage regarding demons. But now we must speak of Hades, in which the souls both of the righteous and the unrighteous are detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there. This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, distributing according to each one’s deeds the temporary punishments for (different) characters. And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, a lake of unquenchable fire, into which we suppose no one has ever yet been cast; for it is prepared against the day determined by God, in which one sentence of righteous judgment shall be justly applied to all. And the unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), shall be sentenced to this endless punishment. But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and un-fading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host. And when those who are conducted by the angels appointed unto the souls have passed through this gate, they do not proceed on one and the same way; but the righteous, being conducted in the light toward the right, and being hymned by the angels stationed at the place, are brought to a locality full of light. And there the righteous from the beginning dwell, not ruled by necessity, but enjoying always the contemplation of the blessings which are in their view, and delighting themselves with the expectation of others ever new, and deeming those ever better than these. And that place brings no toils to them. There, there is neither fierce heat, nor cold, nor thorn; but the face of the fathers and the righteous is seen to be always smiling, as they wait for the rest and eternal revival in heaven which succeed this location. And we call it by the name Abraham’s bosom. But the unrighteous are dragged toward the left by angels who are ministers of punishment, and they go of their own accord no longer, but are dragged by force as prisoners. And the angels appointed over them send them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower parts. And when they are brought there, those appointed to that service drag them on to the confines or hell. And those who are so near hear incessantly the agitation, and feel the hot smoke. And when that vision is so near, as they see the terrible and excessively glowing spectacle of the fire, they shudder in horror at the expectation of the future judgment, (as if they were) already feeling the power of their punishment. And again, where they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they are also punished there. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst, so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to pass it, nor any of the unrighteous dare to cross it. (Hippolytus, “Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe,” from newadvent.org/fathers/0520.htm
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jlhargus
Guest
According to your statement, because Hades is temporary, the righteous are only to be temporarily happy or blessed. Hippolytus’ never says in his remarks Hades is temporary? I agree Hades is temporary but Hippolytus doesn’t say that. Hippolytus says, “This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, distributing according to each one’s deeds the temporary punishments for (different) characters.”]
He says angels distribute temporary punishments, for (different) characters, according to each one’s deeds. He doesn’t say the temporary punishements are only for the unrighteous. Different characters can mean anyone, righteous or unrighteous, because every human being will be judged by their deeds.
The temporary punishment is the testing of the deeds of the righteous, and the unrighteous as all shall be judged by their deeds. That’s why Jews prayed for their Godly dead. My understanding they prayed and still do today for their dead eleven months. With the idea if they needed more than eleven months of prayer they were to bad to pray for.
Some rigtheous who have mortified their flesh experience no punishment as their deeds are gold, silver or precious stones only. Having purged out the wood, hay and straw before death. [Rms8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but **if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.]
The righteous who have works of gold, silver, wood and straw will suffer temporary punishments at judgment. Because of their works of wood and straw. Then pass through the gate, the only entrance to Hades, to the right into Abraham’s Bosom where their is no punishment only blessedness. A blessedness that is not temporary, because Hades is temporary, but a blessedness that will continue always becoming more intense in heaven.
[1Cor4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, **I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.] The counsel or intention of the heart will manifest whether the deed is gold or straw.
Even the unrighteous’ good works are as filth rags to God, not to mention their evil deeds. The unrighteous will just begin to be eternally punished as they are forced to the left into Hades after entering the gate. Having always before them the vision and feeling the hot smoke of the Lake of Fire their final destiny at the resurrection.
[Rms2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of **the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,]
The happiness of the righteous, in Hades, is not temporary but continuous culminating in heaven, joy beyond joy, when they behold God face to face. The punishment of the unrighteous is not temporary but continuous beginning with the testing of their deeds. Becoming more intense as they are forced to the left after entering through the gate of Hades and forced down deeper. Culminating when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire at the last judgment.
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jlhargus
Guest
Hippolytus clearly describes Abraham’s Bosom where there is no suffering. But first one must be judged for their deeds in order to discern whether they go right or left after going through the gate into Hades. [Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:].
Well you are partially right. That’s why Divine Tradition is so important. Conversely nobody can read the bible and walk away from it thinking, “Wow, God’s a Trinity, three Divine, equal Persons in the one essence of God!” Unless one had previously known the Tradition of the Trinity. If someone who has never heard of the Trinity and knows nothing about it were given a bible to read, he or she would not see any idea of three equal person in the one essence of God.
The Trinity was only discerned through the Tradition of the Church, both oral and written, after several centuries and controversies. It’s easy to see the Trinity, in the bible, when you already have the Tradition. With your theology you shouldn’t even believe in the Trinity as the bible nowhere uses that term or says there are three person in the one essence of God. Wouldn’t that be adding words that are not found in the text of scripture?
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jlhargus
Guest
[Mt5:20 For **I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the JUDGMENT: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the JUDGMENT: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.]
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Duane1966
Guest
I would think if they had at minimum a seventh grade education, they would definitely see the concept, even if they had never heard of Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory.
The following is your quote.
Why do you only address the first part of verse 15? You address the loss part, but not the rest. Let’s examine the second part!
*** though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. ***. Looks like purification to me.
Notice, now the fire is in direct relationship to the person being saved. The fire earlier tested the works of the person, now they are going through something. Notice also, that St. Paul says the people WILL BE SAVED, clearly saying that they are not saved YET. They have already seen whether their works have been consumed or not, yet they are still going through something else.
If you know anything about precious metals and fire, you know at least two things. Fire softens metal, and if hot enough will burn away IMPURITIES.
Why would St. Paul even bring the word fire into the equation? He could have easily said: your works that were done for selfish reasons will be destroyed, you will suffer loss, but you are saved. But he didn’t. He added * the as through fire*, and that changed everything.
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